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Here is a series of three pics taken this evening of my female suboc stalking her prey. pics #1,#2,and #3 are in chronological order. I'm sure you can guess what happened right after pic #3, I prefer not to post that photo. Although you can't tell in the third pic, she never left the rock cut during the stalk and capture. Hope you like the pics, even though their quality leaves much to be desired. Kevin Muchnick

Pic#2

pIC#3

Heheheh!
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Todd Hughes

Very cool series.

I guess no killed prey on his menu. Hope the suboc doesn't nailed by the mouse.

Mike

Every time I see that cage I can't believe how cool it is. It's neat how a more naturalistic setting can bring out traits and characteristics that you don't see otherwise.

Do you have any problems with cleaning? I would think it would be hard to clean if the snake defecated inside the rocks.

i appreciate the compliment mike. the cage is easy to clean. what doesn't come up with a paper towel is lightly scubbed with a wet tooth brush, even dried material washes off easily this way. kevin

i built this cage in order to observe and try to understand some of a trans-pecos ratsnakes natural behaviors. how could i observe ant type of natural hunting styles if he were offered pre-killed food? i'll probably never know if what i observe in this cage even closely resembles natural, wild behavior. but, hey it's much more interesting than the way i keep the majority of my snakes in sweater boxes, and i just may learn a few things along the way. kevin

LOL, throw a bat in there! Then you'll see some really wild behavior!
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Todd Hughes

>> i'll probably never know if what i observe in this cage even closely resembles natural, wild behavior. but, hey it's much more interesting than the way i keep the majority of my snakes in sweater boxes, and i just may learn a few things along the way. kevin

Good attitude to have, Kevin. Just like we don't really learn "natural behaviors" of a Green Tree Python by keeping it in a cage -- since too many factors are removed, we can surely attempt to get a better glimpse by reproducing some of the structural aspects of their natural microhabitats -- i.e. by using branches for coiling on instead of a bare floor. Nothing wrong with keeping animals to learn natural phenomena and to ignite a passion for learning biology and natural history.

Even Charles Darwin acknowledged that his hobby of raising pigeons (driving artificial selection via captive breeding) helped him to understand and frame his reigning (and thriving, I might add) theory of descent with modification via the mechanism of natural selection.

While I don't object to feeding your snake live prey if that I what you want to do, but let's not pretend that we are learning anything about how a snake hunts in the wild. You put a captive breed mouse in the cage with no fear of predators, and no way to escape if it wanted to. Was this a WC snake that had over time learned to refine its hunting skills?

I know that there are many people out there who like to watch one animal kill and eat another animal, and that is fine, but don't try to justify your behavior by saying it is in the quest of knowledge. That is just a bunch of bull.

Dusty, you should know better.

i think you may have overlooked the most poignant aspect of the post.

I saw your post a few weeks back when you showed how you created the cage decorations. You did a great job, and I hope your snake felt less stressed because of it. I think that giving your animals a more natural setting is always a good thing to do for them.

Throwing a live mouse in a cage with a snake teaches you nothing about the two animal's natural behaviors. The snake can't miss, and the mouse can't get away. That isn't natural.

>>Throwing a live mouse in a cage with a snake teaches you nothing about the two animal's natural behaviors. The snake can't miss, and the mouse can't get away. That isn't natural.

And yet a suboc constricts and/or pins, a copperhead strikes and follows, an Eastern hognose snake deflates a live toad with a specialized rear fang, a gartersnake grabs and quickly swallows while prey is still alive, a snail-eater pulls a live snail from it's shell. Saying that a person -- especially a child or any uninitiated person -- cannot learn something about the natural behaviors of an organism by feeding them their live prey is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I think I understand what you're trying to say, that learning about nat. behaviors from captives pales in comparison to reading peer-reviewed literature. But most field biologists started out keeping herps, and in most cases, that was pivotal in their transition to becoming a professional biologist. In other words, they learned stuff that fed their interests to make better, more sophisticated inquiries.

entirely. Go back and read it again...this time, more carefully.

DR

Dusty,

My point is that feeding your snake live mice in cages teaches one nothing about how a snake goes obout locating, stalking?, and catching its prey in a natural setting.

To start your post with "well said" only serves to encourage this sadistic behavior. He didn't just tell us about it, he posted pictures and justified it by saying he wanted to learn something about this snakes natural behavior in the wild. People can post what they want, but I see nothing educational or scientific about what was done.

A few summers ago, I was at a small pond where I saw a water snake stalking a frog. Well, before the snake could strike, and it did get very close, the frog must have seem the slight movement, and leaped to safety. That was nature. Throwing live mice into cages, no matter how well decorated, teaches us almost nothing. The snake is not "working" for his meal, and the mouse doesn't have a chance not to become the meal.

And 'sadistic behavior'? C'mon. That's a little on the strong side, isn't it? I don't know Kevin, but I certainly am not getting the vibe that he's a sadistic person, and I think you owe him an apology, to be honest.

But anyway, you jumped to conclusions and did not read my post or did not understand it. I was only making references that STRUCTURAL ASPECTS OF AN ORGANISM'S microhabitat can be used to teach you SOMETHING about the organism (e.g. climbing abilities, etc). I said nothing nor did I allude to anything concerning that snake's hunting behavior.

And that keeping animals, IN GENERAL, can teach you about natural phenomena in an indirect way (e.g. you can learn about natural selection by observing artificial selection, just as Darwin did).

You need to go back and actually read what I posted. Better yet, I'll just paste it here:

Good attitude to have, Kevin. Just like we don't really learn "natural behaviors" of a Green Tree Python by keeping it in a cage -- since too many factors are removed, we can surely attempt to get a better glimpse by reproducing some of the structural aspects of their natural microhabitats -- i.e. by using branches for coiling on instead of a bare floor. Nothing wrong with keeping animals to learn natural phenomena and to ignite a passion for learning biology and natural history.

You CAN learn about natural behaviors by keeping animals in captivity. Point in case, I have two Bredl's Pythons. I keep them in cages exactly like my Subocs, Baird's, Bajas, and Grey-Bands. Like most Morelia, they hunt from perches at night in the wild and snag small mammals that pass by. How do you think they use their hidebox and waterbowl (the only structures in their cage)? They hide in them sometimes, but in the afternoon and especially at night they coil tightly over their small 2-inch ceramic bowls or their hideboxes, coils draped tightly over the sides, and their heads are angled towards the ground, motionless, and slightly extended -- the Morelia hunting posture. Seeing this behavior firsthand can teach people about their natural behaviors. I already made the case that a MILLION natural factors are left out of captive situations -- that's not what is being argued here. I argue that you can learn and gain an appreciation for nature by keeping captives.

DR

To start your post with "well said" only serves to encourage this sadistic behavior. He didn't just tell us about it, he posted pictures and justified it by saying he wanted to learn something about this snakes natural behavior in the wild. People can post what they want, but I see nothing educational or scientific about what was done.

That's hilarious. So the act of a snake using constriction on a prey item is "sadistic"? The dance between predator and prey is both ancient and honorable, and is to be respected, not denigrated.I know that may be lost on today's generation, who get their meat and fish wrapped in cellophane, but it is nonetheless true.

I wholeheartedly endorse the comments of both Dusty and the OP...No graphic photos were posted, so take a chill pill.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I like the subocs odds, waaay better than any mouses'!
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Todd Hughes

Very cool set up and thanks for posting pics.
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Randy Whittington

Nice.
I like the attempt, anyway, to figure out what the snake prefers.

As to feeding live, I know many people disagree with it for several reasons, but its sometimes necessary, and if watched, IMO, its almost never injurious to the snake.

I may need that type of set-up for my female.
She regurges whenever I feed her too frequently or too large an item. She may need more exercise or something.
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Jack Jeansonne

>>As to feeding live, I know many people disagree with it for several reasons, but its sometimes necessary, and if watched, IMO, its almost never injurious to the snake.

Agreed. Well-fed rodents do not attack snakes. It's only starving rodents (which doesn't take very long, given a rodent's metabolism -- no more than an hour or two), though they may try to defend themselves if attacked. Too many pet store herp books reiterate the incomplete truth that rodents "attack" snakes. That's incorrect. But starving rodents will EAT a reluctant or disinterested snake (the only edible thing in the entire snake cage) that can't escape from the rodent even if it wanted to.