Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...just hatched! I have at least one more aberrant pattern in the clutch that is now peaking out of an egg. Has anybody seen any other black milks with patterns like these? Thanks! -D

I've hatched out some slightly abberant black milks but not that extreme. It's a nice looking hatchling but in the end it doesn't really matter because it will turn a gorgeous all black as an adult.

Rob

Hmmmmm

That is interesting. How many other people get aberrant black milks? I wonder if aberrancies are common in the wild? This does bring up an interesting idea in my mind. I don't know how many black milks are imported each year, but if it is not many and everyone is breeding the San Antonio zoo line is it possible that we are seeing the effects of line breeding?

Purely armchairing here, but it would be interesting to get everyone's thoughts/opinions on it.

Later,
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Kyle

Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

8.9.2 Milks and Kings
2.2 Hognose
3.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.14 Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Macklots Pythons
1.1 Geckos

Very nice... first off, how did you get black milks hatching this early? Mine usually lays in late June/early July, so I don't get hatchlings until mid-September or so.

Secondly, yes, I've seen aberrant hatchlings like that, always thought it was pretty cool, even if it doesn't last. I've even considered selectively breeding them for that trait, but from my limited experience (one breeding pair of '02 gaigeae, one clutch per year since '05) it seems like the most aberrant ones tend to have "issues". For example, the '05 that I gave to my father (in the foreground of the group shot) took an unusually long time to darken, even now is pretty small for an adult black milk. Then again, that could be due to husbandry... Dad's more of a boa/python guy, so he always fed it less and kept it warmer than I advised him to. The only hatchling I've ever had die due to general failure to thrive (weak feeding response, bad sheds) was also the most aberrant I've ever produced (no pics, sadly). I have two holdbacks from last year's clutch that I'll have to get pics of, but again, the normally patterned yearling has never refused a meal and is well on its way to turning black, whereas the more aberrant one refuses meals quite often and hasn't grown or darkened nearly as much. So, as cool as it would be to produce striped black milks, I'm a bit hesitant due to the weaknesses that seem to accompany that trait. Anyway, here are some pictures...

My breeder '02 female as a hatchling...

Her first cluch, 2005, aberrant female in the foreground...

From the '07 clutch...

Nate

Here are the '08s... quite a difference, as you can see.

You make a good point that the pattern is gone (or at least mostly) within a few years. This is kind of what bringing the line breeding question to my mind. What is the advantage of an aberrant pattern in a snake that will not have this pattern for all that long?

There is no advantage, other than satisfying the human compulsion to produce something unique and aesthetically pleasing. Personally, I think that black milks (aberrant or otherwise) are both, which is why they dominate my small herp collection and are the only species I breed. (Well, I don't breed them, they breed each other, I just make the introductions... you know what I mean!) But anyway, as a gaigeae breeder, what one aspires to produce is a hatchling that will grow up to be as large and black as the record-holding specimen at the San Antonio Zoo. Unfortunately, there's really no way to discern the growth or color change potential of a hatchling black milk by just looking at it. You can say they're "San Antonio Zoo Line", but so are most of the gaigeae currently available in the U.S. So, in order to make the hatchling stand out in some way, you have to take a different approach, which is why I'd consider selectively breeding for a striped pattern. I guess my point was, if that trait comes at the cost of more serious problems (increased mortality, poor feeding/growth), especially since it's only a temporary effect, then it's really not worth pursuing. My own experince has been a bit discouraging, but I'd be interested to hear others' experiences with raising aberrant black milks. My female breeder turned out OK, so they can't all be bad.

Nate

pops out they will be at a premium.

The amel gene will be interesting if it ever pops up. I hypothesize that the snake will still go through the color change but it will be to white/pink not black. I would guess that the genes controlling color change are not linked to the genes controlling melanin pigment. So the amel gene would knock out the melanin production but have no effect on the color change genes. Although if they are linked, the outcome will be really interesting. The other less likely option (IMO) is that the pattern will remain and the snake will look like other amel milks.

A snake that changes from tricolor amel to pure white/pink will be REALLY cool.
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Kyle

Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

8.9.2 Milks and Kings
2.2 Hognose
3.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.14 Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Macklots Pythons
1.1 Geckos

It would seem to me, at least, that the result of amelanism in L. t. gaigeae would result in a "typial amelanistic tricolor". I'm not trying to start an argument here, but rathre, trying to explain the processes as I understand them.

The ontogenic increase in melanin production in gaigeae, and to a lesser extent in other Latin American forms like polyzona, creates a situation where the typical tricolored pattern is obscured by an overlay of melanin. When darkly colored milks are viewed in the light, it becomes apparent that the xanthins and erythrins (yellow and red pigments) are still present, just masked by the dark melanin. This is much more obvious in forms where the ontogenic change is less pronounced (polyzona, etc.), but still observable in at least some gaigeae. It stands to reason that if that suffusion of melanin is simply stopped, that a brightly colored, "typical" amelanistic milk would result.

-Cole

L. t. polyzona - hatchling, still bearing "white" rings

L. t. polyzona - adult female, with "white" rings obscured by melanin

I disagree with the idea that the increase in black pigment simply obscures the underlying color. Take for example black tipping. If the black simply overlayed the other pigments, a heavily black tipped individual that was amel would not have white tipped scales. But they do. Having the black overlay the other colors also implies that there are two layers of pigment one containing a ton of black and a deeper one containing red, orange, etc.

Perhaps it is something in between where the other pigments are there but to a much lesser extent, such that when the black was removed with the amel gene you would see a kind of speckling with the remaining colors.

LOL I really enjoy these debates. Realize that I'm not 100% convinced that I'm correct, but what follows makes sense in my mind...

There's a difference between the "deep" melanin that is found in the black rings and at the tips of the scales and the suffusion of melanin that gradually takes over the red and white bands in an ontogenic fashion. A darkening gaigeae not only has dark scale tips (which most Latin American forms are hatched with, to one degree or another), but also has a dusky wash of melanin throughout the scales. Even a very clean Honduran or Sinaloan has dark tips on the scales. Obviously, some are darker than others, and the dark tips may be more pronounced on certain individuals.

It would be quite interesting to see the results of an amelanistic gaigeae!

-Cole

I agree with all that 100%. They would look no different than other tricolored amels, and would also tend to have the same possible variable underlying pigment that some Hondurans, nelsoni, etc.. also can have(yellows, etc..). They could also have a tendency to be very "tipped-up" scale-wise with white where the melanin would ordinarily be on a wild-type specimen as it matures, just as others are known to do.

Good to be back on the forums!!...YEEEHAWWW!!..lol!

later my friend, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Only one way to solve it............................

Someone needs to get an amel black milk.

True!,....but the scary thought that I would always have, would be the question of it's purity. It would have to key-out perfectly in every single way meristic-wise, and have been produced by a very well-known breeder friend that I knew, or otherwise I would be HIGHLY suspicious of it's genetic background. Just as in many other things that have made an appearance in the hobby. Those types of things absolutely sicken me about the hobby, as it does many others. But yes, I agree...a "pure" one would be AWESOME!!!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Cole makes some great points and it is very interesting to think about.

On the other hand, Doug's amel tri color shows white tipping at the end of the orange scales. If the change that occurs in gaigeae is similar to the tipping which occurs in tricolors it would let me to believe that an amel gaigeae WOULD in fact turn white/pink to a greater extent than remaining tricolored. Hopefully the amel gene will turn up in "pure" gaigeae someday as it definately would be very interesting to see the outcome!

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Joe

Yes, it's quite probable there would/could be more lighter underlying coloration in an amel gaigeae, but still basically the same as in other Latin American amel triangulum, and of course the phenotype(what you see visually) would depend on whatever genetic underlying factors that individual snake had. Sort of like comparing apples to oranges, but it would still be interesting to see a "real" one in person one day, I agree.

How's that awesome amel Eastern doin'???. Has he made any hets this year???. I still can't get over that insanely lucky find you made in your yard by the pond,..wow!!

take care, Joe

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Those are cool, to bad they turned cause that would look cool on a adult.
Here are some I had last year.

L8r
Shannon

Black Milks are a joy to work with, and are almost like keeping 2 different snakes: one small tricolor, and one large, black rat slayer!

Nice looking youngster!

-Cole