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WHATS THE BIG STANK OVER T-,P ,QPS#,R TO THE J NEGATIVE$$$,ALBINOS????????
WHERE DOES ONE ALBINO MORPH HAVE ANYTHING OVER ANOTHER ALBINO MORPH???
AN ALBINO IS AN ALBINO RIGHT?????? WHERE CAN YOU TAKE IT????
CAN ANY OF YOU EXPERTS CLEAR THE CONFUSION??????

All albino's(amelanistics) are definitely NOT the same thing at all. I think you are mainly refering to the T-positive albino in this case. The T-positive amel nelsoni that everyone is "oooing" about lately is VERY special indeed.
Most albino's, and especially in this case with milks have up until now been amel(T-negative), with the possible exception of a couple, and that is they have no melanin at all, and no tyrosinase which is an enzyme protein that allows the pigment cell to properly synthesize melanin. This leaves the animals scales basically white in color.

The recently produced T-negative albino nelsoni HAS tyrosinase within the pigment cell, but cannot properly synthesize melanin, leaving the cell with a strange darker chocolate hue to it's appearance. Also, this new form is also an incomplete dominance(I think) as opposed to a simple recessive as in most ALL other forms of albinism(amelanism). This has a TOTALLY different inheratance as compared to the other forms.

I know what you mean about there being so many different types in the hobby, and it can be VERY confusing to most, I'll agree, but if all these different types of genetics are understood, you then quickly realize that all this weird stuff is as different as night and day. Especially when you consider the rarity between a few of these crazy traits.

It's impossible to explain all of the genetics in one simple post, but I hope this has at least helped you to understand some of these major differences.

Just as all beers are not alike, neither are some of the genetics in the hobby...LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I meant to say T-POSITIVE in the second paragraph, not T-negative!

Also, in my reference to incomplete dominance, I meant to type incomplete CO-dominance, which I "think" is the case in the nelsoni's situation.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I don't personally know what's going on with the inheritance of the T albino trait in nelsoni, but I thought I could share a little light on incomplete dominance vs. codominance. I'll be teaching this in my biology class this year anyway so I may as well get some practice right?

So let's say you cross two flowers, a red and a white, in which both the red genes in one and the white genes in the other are dominant genes.

If the inheritance pattern is codominance, the resulting flower will be pink. This is because both dominant genes are equally expressed, thus an equal 'blending' of the colors.

If the inheritance pattern is incomplete dominance, then the resulting flower will have patches of red and white, but not pink.

So someone a little more knowledgable on the T nelsoni want to tackle this and try to qualify the inheritance? The problem is the herp community tends to toss around these terms without any real regard to the actual genetic phenomenon. BP folks are the worst about this (no offense to BP folks!), calling anything that can produce the mutation in the first generation a "codom" regardless of what it actually is.
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Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com

"If the inheritance pattern is codominance, the resulting flower will be pink. This is because both dominant genes are equally expressed, thus an equal 'blending' of the colors.

If the inheritance pattern is incomplete dominance, then the resulting flower will have patches of red and white, but not pink. "

I think you have this backwards. Although, in this example a codominant flower would look pink because of patches of red and white.
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Kyle

Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

8.9.2 Milks and Kings
2.2 Hognose
3.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.14 Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Macklots Pythons
1.1 Geckos

The link I pulled up first on Google was incorrect. Incomplete dominance would result in the blending, whereas codominance would result in the expression of both dominant alleles by themselves.

Good thing I cleared this up for myself before school starts!
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Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com

Good ole' Campbell and Reece saves the day again.

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Kyle

Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

8.9.2 Milks and Kings
2.2 Hognose
3.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.14 Texas Rat Snake
1.1 Macklots Pythons
1.1 Geckos

Thanks for clearing that up. The way you explained it makes perfectly good sense.
All my personal experience over many years has been strictly with recessive genes regarding colubrids, and not some of the others as you mentioned with boas and pythons. But besides being a tyrosinase positive nelsoni, it is also supposed to have something OTHER than a simple recessive gene at work regarding the inheritance of the trait. This is basically unheard of in the colubrid hobby.

thanks again!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>... I think you are mainly refering to the T-positive albino in this case. The T-positive amel nelsoni that everyone is "oooing" about lately is VERY special indeed.
>> Most albino's, and especially in this case with milks have up until now been amel(T-negative)

How many people who posted in this thread have ever done the lab tests to ID a snake as T- or T ? Anyone? If not, where are those tests done? Where have the results been published? I thought i'd read it took lab tests to confirm hypotheses about T or T-, and I've watched for subsequent reports of those efforts, but haven't seen them. Am I looking at the wrong journals?

Couldn't a snake that looks generally like an amel but has a little pigment in the "bands that would have been black" and in the eyes, just be a hypomelanistic--less melanin than nominative "hypos", but not the complete absence of melanin? As Nokturnel Tom notes in a post further down this thread, "Then again sometimes those are called Hypos "

Are we talking science or speculation? (I'm not so much challenging the generalizations being thrown about here, as I am asking to be shown the data so I can put my sometimes annoying -- to me, and perhaps to others -- skepticism to rest)

To be quite honest, Terry, Ive been pondering those very same things for quite some time too. I've certainly never conducted a dopa test in a laboratory on anything to prove or disprove the existance of tyrosinase. I only know what I've read about it(like everyone else. And yes, just like,.. let's say a "hypo" temporalis for example, some lines are surely hypo's, and some are much more likely to be a form of amelanism, or even an "extreme" hypo. As you mentioned, and I really do agree, without scientific lab testing, much about the phenotypes we see expressed in animals is pure speculation, unless one can see certain results that are much more easily proven. In other words, I fully agree.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

SOMETIMES WE HUMANS ASSUME TOO MUCH.THE GENETICS THEORY WOULD VALIDATED IF HARD DATA WERE AVAILABLE. IN MY IGNORANT OPINION,THESE PARTICULAR COLOR PHASES(T POSITIVE AND T-)NEED SCIENTIFIC TESTING IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY THE CLAIMS BEING LAID TO THEM.

Are you 5 years old? Do you just need attention this bad to start this thread to try and passive aggressively bash someone? Grow up an turns your caps lock off. Thanks and have a nice day.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

You know I think you just found another way to self promote yourself in this hobby when you don't have any snakes anymore. You can get the tests done and keep your name around forever and ever!! Lol
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

>>You know I think you just found another way to self promote yourself in this hobby when you don't have any snakes anymore. You can get the tests done and keep your name around forever and ever!! Lol
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I don't know who you are but i make no effort to hide my identity in my posts: I'm Terry Dunham, for better or worse Or does that constitute more self-promotion?

Anyway, if i knew an easy way to make the test available, i'd do it, because it would help us learn more about our snakes. Do you have a problem with that?

Lastly, you seem to have taken offense to my questioning the t and t-. If I've struck a nerve, i'm sorry. I really don't know what that nerve is. As i said in my original post, I'm asking because if there IS a clear answer, I'd like to know it. I have no desire to be the one guy in the club who hasn't gotten the secret message, if that's the case.

I don't understand why even those who say they've produced a t or t- should take offense at my question: I haven't argued the snakes aren't beautiful. I haven't argued they aren't noteworthy. If you're one of those people, you've got something neat. I'm simply trying to maintain objectivity about what they're identified as.

(NOTE: It's also possible you're just one of my buddies giving me a hard time. If that's the case, take another shot and this time clarify for me the reasons for concluding any of these snakes are or -. I'm listening)

>>I don't know who you are but i make no effort to hide my identity in my posts: ...

what i meant to say there is, if you tell me who you are, maybe we could bump into each other at Expo and chat about the t and t-.

peace
terry

Don't like them? Come on they have to be albinolicious don't they? What's wrong with having a codominant albino gene in colubrids to work with?

At least it's not in a stinking Honduran or corn snake.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

"WHERE DOES ONE ALBINO MORPH HAVE ANYTHING OVER ANOTHER ALBINO MORPH???"

ANSWER: PRICE

My opinion on this...
This is a new morph and its the first time its been produced in the US.
You wont find this animal on every other table at shows or in ads on the classifieds.
I think they're really cool looking and apparently a lot of other people do too.
For me... I welcome morphs like this and hope there's many more to come. Every year there's posts about snakes with a "what's the big deal" kind of comments and I think it's bad for the hobby in general.
Some high dollar animals will not interest people til pricing comes down, and that's fine with me. What I don't understand is the mentality that all snakes should be priced the same. I think pricing should depend on how common the snake is, then color, pattern, and picks of the litter come into play.
Snakes from Jaap Kooj [hoping I got the spelling right] blew many peoples doors off when we saw them....in a matter of months they were just Hondos.
I'd pay way over average pricing on any snake morph or normal that I thought was something special. Ive done so in the past and would do it again. If I wasnt so tied up in other projects I'd probably have snagged some of these new morphs in a second. I think they're really cool and just like to see "new" stuff every season.
If Hybino Hondos would have been a lot more different looking than the Tangerine Albinos those could have done a lot for that practically bottomed out market. It's a big world out there and many people think small... that there's only this small number of people interested in cutting edge pricey snakes. I disagree, but trying to knock them down a notch from the get go is just not good for anyone. What's next? Taking your hard earned cash to travel to a big show, pay vendors fees and all expenses and then selling everything for $20?
Personally I feel if your the first one to produce something no one else has it is a victory. I'd be proud.
Just my 10 cents
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

I appreciate your taking the time to explain the different genetics behind T and T-.
Rodney

easy....think pink eye or normal/dark colored eye on a morph.

The Pink eyed are T negative Albino, others that have Albino or similar to Albino coloration and have normal/dark eyes are usually labeled T Positive.
Then again sometimes those are called Hypos
Or in the case of Sonoran Gophers Rustys

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post.
Tom
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes