Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi
I have a hermanns tortoise (s)he is about 1 1/2 yrs old. over the last couple monthes i have noticed he is slightly beginning to pyramid. he eats a good variety of foods, leafy greens n other veggies. what can i do to prevent this from happening anymore?

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2.4 Columbian Boas
2.1 Central American Boas
2.2 Argentine Boas
1.1 Bredli Carpet Pythons
1.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Tokay Gecko
0.0.1 Nile Monitor
1.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Hermanni Tortoise
2.3 RES

...horses, cats, dogs...and many many rats!

It is said to be a multifactorial disease:
-Too much proteïn in the diet (beans,some manufactured food)
-Too much quantity of a right diet
-Mineral deficiencies
-Dehidratation

I read somewhere (I thik it was Highfield in the tortoisetrust) a good article about this. I will search it and tell you.

Now they say the most important thing is to provide a humid environment for the hatchlings somewhere in the terrarium (like a box with a sponge) or to bathe it often. Dehidratation colapses the cartilaginous growing tissue before it becomes bone. When it becomes bone it is in a colapsed "matrix" and pyramidism appears. They say that tortoises fed a high protein diet but with a good hidratation don´t show pyramidism and the opposite, tortoises well fed but in a too dry environment show it.

I would also try to feed it with "natural" greens, very rich in fiber and a good ratio of minerals and vitamins (see edible food in many tortoise webs). The growth will be slow as it happens in nature.

I found the article, but it is not in the tortoisetrust.
It is in

Sulcata station
Articles
Pyramiding in tortoises

I also think that, in order to avoid a too fast growth, in this species is good to have a hibernation/brumation period in which growing stops.

Good luck with your tortoise.

Pyramiding theories have changed a lot in the last few years. I believe what Richard and Jerry Fife said in various articles and in the their book on Leopard tortoises (which are notorious for pyramiding), pg. 19,20, 2006, that humidity is essential to prevent it, and the first couple years of a tortoises life are critical. I think they had an article in Reptiles magazine a few years back about it, you might seek the archives. Essential to understand humidity in captive conditons vs. wet. I think Jordic gave you good info., Fifes' articles will make it easy to understand and every tortoise keeper should read it. At the time Richard Fife stated his pyramiding prevention theory, it was bold thinking...sticking his neck out. Diet is important for many reasons, but pyramiding seems to relate to other factors as well as Jordic states. Proper humidity and offering options of choice are essential I believe. Good luck,Vic

ok that makes sense. I live in colorado and it is extremely dry out. I keep a humid box for all of my snakes using spagnum moss, but the tortoise tries to eat it...

What is the best way to make a humid hide for a tortoise?
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2.4 Columbian Boas
2.1 Central American Boas
2.2 Argentine Boas
1.1 Bredli Carpet Pythons
1.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Tokay Gecko
0.0.1 Nile Monitor
1.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Hermanni Tortoise
2.3 RES

...horses, cats, dogs...and many many rats!

One way is to make an artificial cave, such as plastic box or bowl, and cut out an entrance. Be sure the box is dark, not see through/opaque. Using a hot glue gun, glue a sponge on the top of it, and soak the sponge to maintain/increase humidity. Best to have few boxes set up, and you can dry them out, rotating them.
Monitor carefully and avoid yellow sponge, which my tortoises seemed attracted to and would probably eat(prevent that). Best if box is high enough the tortoise won't try to eat the sponge. EJ taught me this and it worked well. I also tried a pipe for a hide, with a damp sponge in the end and a barrier so the tortoise couldn't eat it, it worked OK but harder to clean than the box.

Others use coconut coire or orchid bark substrate, and just keep a corner damp, with a plastic hide box over the damp area. Give your tortoise choices, give them a hide box that is humid, another that is dryer, and see which it chooses. Choices are good, light/dark, warm/cool, damp/dry, rough/smooth, etc.

Understand humidity is not standing water and a swampy morass, it is humidity in the microclimate within the hide area. DO NOT allow your tortoise to sit in a wet area long term, but soaking in water bowl is fine as long as it can dry out.

How are other keepers providing humidity to hatchlings/juveniles to prevent pyramiding?

good luck, Vic

When saying glue the sponge on top, I meant to glue it on the "ceiling" of the cave, above where the tortoise will be hiding/hanging out. vic

thank you i will try that... and my tortoise is attracted to anything yellow as well, its so funny.
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2.4 Columbian Boas
2.1 Central American Boas
2.2 Argentine Boas
1.1 Bredli Carpet Pythons
1.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Tokay Gecko
0.0.1 Nile Monitor
1.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Hermanni Tortoise
2.3 RES

...horses, cats, dogs...and many many rats!

Could moss work? I don´t know if this would bee too humid (specially for horsfieldii) or if they would eat it.
My horsfieldii hatchlings have not such a smooth caparace as do marginata´s hatchlings. In most pics of horsfieldii hatchlings I observe this too. Would it be normal for the species or is this a slight pyramidism?
I will try to put some pictures, I know this would help.
I discard dietary problems so, if any, it would be a problem of humidity or too much feeding. I feed them in seasons in which they naturaly wouldn´t (when all the vegetation is dry).I bath them but maybe it does not prevent dehidratation. They are kept in a 1,5 sq.meters in a outdoor pen in a dry area in Spain. They can bury under logs, roots of plants... so they can make "microclimates" (see Highlfield in the tortoise trust). In the summer months I ofen take them out of the "cave" or I lift the log to feed them. Maybe it is a mistake. Do you feed your hatchlings all the summer?

I have known recently that humidity´s theory is under serious debate. Well known experts desagree with it. Dietary protein levels (wether for too much feeding or for a wrong diet) is considered one of the most important factors.
I am not an expert and those who disagree are, so we will have to wait to see how does it finish.

My experience with tortoises has been that pyramiding is a function of several factors, not just one or the other. I worked for a zoo that kept radiated tortoises (among others). Prior to my working there they were kept dry, fed a diet high in protein (including boiled eggs (YIKES!)and fruit, low in fiber, without any calcium supplementation. On top of that they were fed huge amounts of these food items. All of them were pyramided, but the one with the most grotesque pyramiding was the one that ate the most food. The smallest tortoise, which died of sudden death (in my opinion due to the exceptionally poor husbandry and diet), had the least amount of pyramiding. That horrible experience showed me that the amount of food and the protein composition did indeed play a part in the pyramiding we see in captive tortoises, because again this institution was doing pretty much everything wrong when it came to husbandry and diet. Since these tortoises where clutch mates, if the composition of the diet and the amount of the diet fed didn't play any role in pyramiding then they all should have had a similar level of pyramiding since their enclosure had no humidity chamber and averaged about 30% humidity. This again, was not the case. Again, the one that ate the most grew the fastest and had the worst pyramiding of the three (and some of the worst pyramiding I have ever seen). Just so you know, I did correct the diet and humidity issues while I was there as well other aspects of their husbandry, but once that level of pyramiding is there the damage is done.
I will also say that I too have a Hermann’s tortoise and even with a natural diet which I cycle the amounts and composition of, calcium and vitamin supplementation, UVB, humidity chamber, and soaking I have noticed a very small amount of what looks like pyramiding. The tortoise is the same age as yours (a little over a year and a half old) and as far as I can tell is growing at the recommended rate. According to Andy Highfield of the Tortoise Trust, Hermann’s tortoises are hard to grow to adulthood without some pyramiding. He suggests, on top of all of the above listed recommendations, that they be hibernated even as juveniles for 6 or so weeks during the winter months to slow growth down even more which may help with the pyramiding. I am planning to hibernate my tortoise in a wine cooler starting in January to see if this may help stop any further pyramiding from occurring. If you haven't you should check out the Tortoise Trust site. There is a great deal of good info there.
Best regards,
Shane