Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this suboc laid a clutch of 15 total eggs, 13 seemingly fertile and 2 slugs. she is 2&1/2 years old. so far my 2009 clutches have been far above average size with six clutches totalling 62 eggs. another six females are scheduled to lay soon. regards, Kevin Muchnick

Nice! Great looking snake too. What other colors/patterns have laid for you this year?

mike, my subocs of choice are the common suboc, blondes and common silvers which i have a pair of black gap het silvers that i am expecting a clutch from any day. that current total of 62 eggs is the fertile egg count. i have had five or six slugs here and there so far. kevin

Nice clutch!I can't even get mine to look at each other this year.
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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"

it's not necessarily too late. keep a lookout for any change in behavior from your female. if you see a change, make an introduction. sometimes the breeding window of opportunity for a suboc can be as short as two or three days. regards, kevin

>>the breeding window of opportunity for a suboc can be as short as two or three days. regards, kevin

Just curious where you get that number from, Kevin? The breeding window is usually from late May through August, gestation is about 36-40 days, and if you intend to double-clutch your females, then they will often breed again soon after the first clutch is laid (some five to six weeks after they bred for the first time), so there is usually a several-week-long window.

Subocs are famous for a lot of "quickies" that escape keepers' notice, and some years females just aren't receptive, so both can deceptively lead people to believe that they have a short window, but two or three days is way too short, IMO. Keep in mind, and I'm sure you know this, their number one goal in life is to pass on their genes.

Of course, no reproductive study of TPRSs has been performed (or published), so there is no data to support or refute any statement about the receptivity of females (of course, the only limiting factor for males is how many females they can breed with before they die), but there is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence to support that subocs are more opportunistic breeders than they are rigidly stuck to such a narrow schedule.

Dusty Rhoads
Suboc.com

Dusty, here's a real life cenario that happened this year. A female that I thought should be in season (based on a typical behavioral change that preceeds a females cycle) was rejecting males that were introduced every other day. finally after about forty days she allowed a male to copulate immediately upon introduction. the next day i introduced the same male and she swiftly rejected him as she did the following two days. it is possible that she may have been receptive the day before she copulated as introductions were being made every other day. this was an eighteen month old female and she went on to lay a clutch of eleven with no slugs. experiences such as this is why i claim a female may be receptive for only one to three days once she will accept a male. sure the span of a breeding season may cover several months for the suboc population as a whole, but individual specimens are in season for a short time. i find that five to seven days is the average. I have never had a suboc copulate more that three times with introductions every other day. Kevin

I don't mean to sound critical, but I have to say that I notice a few inconsistencies with making that kind of conclusion, Kevin. First, subocs don't breed right away all the time right at the moment of introduction. In fact, most of the time, they don't. Several breeders who I know have hardly seen their subocs breed, when of course, they did...at some time. Most of what is seen between pairings appears as a female rejecting a male, but again...at some time, they do breed. You would have to have a camera on your subocs 24/7 to be sure that your snakes haven't bred, and even if you were to film all of it, you'd have to watch ALL of the footage. And no one can do that unless they have others helping them (and anyway, what sane person would care enough to help someone do that? LOL).

Also, once a female has had her ova fertilized and has started gestation, she's not going to be receptive of males.

Thirdly, there is evidence that female TPRSs store sperm from males for extended periods of time while allowing other males to copulate. This is typical of the sex with the higher gametic and parental investment (eggs and gestation) being choosy about the dime-a-dozen sperm that are out there, all trying to stake a claim with her one single shot at laying that year, and maybe, in her life.

So, no offense meant, but basically, saying that female TPRSs are only receptive for two - three days because you base it on what you did and didn't see (very limited) is akin to Cub Scout science.

Also, forgive me, but you say that two very young females, one a mere 18 months and the other at 2 and a half years, laid 11 and 15 eggs, respectively. Again, no offense meant, and sorry to be blunt, but I just find that very hard to believe.

The published record for a TPRS clutch is 16 eggs. That came from a large, very much in-her-prime female of eight years, owned by Mike Murphy. The second and third largest clutches that have been recorded in print were also from very large, mature females between their 7th and 9th years. See a pattern here?

Young female TPRSs are thinner and shorter, and so their eggs conform to their body shape by being elongate and thinner (sometimes banana-shaped), and therefore fewer. Larger, mature, older females, have much more girth and their eggs are rounder...like your female here...

The most I've heard of a 2.5 year old female laying is about 5 eggs total. And I've never heard of an 18-month-old female in anyone's collection laying a clutch of eggs ever, as female TPRSs mature more slowly than other Lampropeltinines, often about a year slower.

The record, for a Corn Snake, for example is 53 eggs, and she was five years old and very husky. Of course, this was out of a much larger sample size, as their are single companies, alone, that have tens of thousands of breeder Corns in their facilities a piece. Your claim would be exactly like someone saying that a Corn Snake in her 10th month of life laid about 50 eggs. Snakes have to grow into the capacity to be that fecund in one sitting. They simply don't have the indoor plumbing to support those kinds of numbers at such an adolescent age.

Please forgive me for sounding critical, but this and other forums has had more than its share of people (or very likely one person) going by various aliases, claiming to have literally INCREDIBLE tales of their enormous and Darwinian Demon-like prolific suboc collection, when, remarkably (and conveniently), no one else has even heard of them or personally knows them. I'm not saying that is the case with you, but we have reason to be somewhat skeptical around here.

Also, if you don't mind my asking, what is this "typical behavioral change that preceeds a females cycle" you speak of? I wasn't following you there.

Lastly, your suboc rock wall exhibit is amazing looking, and I know many of us would love to have one. I hope this e-mail doesn't seem like an attack. I'm just tryin' to "keep it real", ya' know.

Cheers,

DR
Suboc.com

I don't post here very often, but I do know Kevin personally. I've seen his snakes as babies and the phenomenal growth that they go through under his regimen/system. I've never known Kevin to lie about things, in fact, he's the most brutally honest person I know. He is an 'outside the box' thinker, and discussions with him are always interesting, and will very often lead me to try new things.

Kevin is a good guy and an honest one.

Mike Humphrey

Dusty,I believe in your book you state that females usually become recptive after the second or third post brumation shed.
As best as I can remember(I'm really slacking at keeping notes this year),my female has only shed one time since coming out of brumation in late February.And she eats a frozen thawed adult mouse weekly.
Not saying they may not have hooked up.They have been paired on and off for the last two months.I just have not seen the typical
breeding behavior this year.No chasing around the cage or the male biting the female.
Last year I saw one good lock and she did not become gravid.In 07 the same pair produced 6 good eggs that all hatched.They just seem lazy about getting the deed done this season.
I held back a pair from 07 that are looking great and are Het. blonde.I'll get some pics of them up when I get my new camera.
Mike Mitstifer
Mike Mitstifer
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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"

I'd love to find out how he does it too. I bred my first pecos back in 74 (pair of wild caught babies) in less than 2 and 1/2 yrs. I had no idea how to keep them except what I found in library books; rocky landscapes, etc. My first apt. at the time had temps in the low 40's to high 30's during the winter, and 90's in the summer. (Don't ask how I managed). I kept the subocs in a 30 gal. s/s tank with lots of rocks built up in the center of the cage with plain fish gravel as substrata. I used a 75 watt red heat lamp sitting atop the screen, directly over the rocks, 24/7. This is where my subocs spent most of their time when feeding, or crawling down to drink water. When temps got more reasonable around april/ may, courtship began. I think copulation was seen maybe once or twice. Anyway they gave me 7 good eggs, very elongated, and all hatched around oct. Obtained another pair of wc babies a few years later, and they too bred in less than 3 years. Subocs weren't popular then, and I eventually sold off my breeders. Got back into subocs again in 00 when blondes came around, then the silvers, albinos, etc. The internet was my source of info, and started raising them like everyone else; aspen bedding, etc. I've bred my current pair 2x so far, but it took much longer than my first venture. Maybe it was the extreme cold, plus cold gravel, the first time around, I don't know.
I couldn't duplicate those conditions again unless I rented an extra apt. with no heat for the winter, just to keep my snakes in. In the winter I put my boxes on the floor to cool down the adults. I guess home owners with unheated basements would have better odds.

Anyway love those big buggy eyes, and their friendly behaviour.

Mike