Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have noticed alot as of late that people are posting things such as het zig zag that i thought were line bred traits. I noticed at the last show I was at it is with all snakes not just corns. I have also noticed people selling regular hypos as sunkissed. I think as more people are scared of the potential python ban we are going to have more people getting into breeding corns and we will be seeing this more.I would love to hear your insights.

Tom

It's a problem. I posted a poll on another fairly popular forum, asking how many years the participants in that forum had been involved in the hobby. Out of several hundred respondents, over 80% had been in herps less than 4 years!

Now how many of those 80% were the same people jumping in on every thread to give care advice as if it were handed down from the Gods themselves?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Most people get out of it right around 5yrs too..

Regards... Tim of T and J

Brad I have been involved for about 5 years but have had alot of help expecially with breeding and genetics questions. Kathy Love has always been more then willing to help Jamie and Johnny from Twin Herps and Terry Dunham have been there if I have ever had questions. I find it is the more research and time you spend into gaining the knoledge.

Tom

I in no way meant to imply that someone with less than 5 years' experience is, by definition, unqualified. Just pointing out how many newbies are out there in comparison to us "old timers". Experience means a lot-but so does an ability to educate yourself!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

i didnt take it anyway other then how it was ment ... its cool

Tom

look in the classafied ads here ... someone has posted a devils kitchen corn ... i have heard of devils garden but never devils kitchen.

Tom

Devil's dining room
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

lol Brad or was that a devil in the bedroom corn..

Tom

people can make up whatever name they want these days. I could call amels "Canadian Pride" corns (ie Canadian colors on the flag are red and white...amels are pretty much reddish and whitish...especially those called 'candycanes')

Not that I intend to market any like that...don't own any amels LOL other than a snow morph who isn't breedable.
-----
PHLdyPayne

......from the Devil's restroom!..LOL!

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I always wondered what Peewee Herman's toilet looked like...
-----
-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Cleopatra"
0.0.2 Crested Geckos "Vinnie" & "Cadence"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Mis-using "buzz" words is a problem and it's been going on for quite some time. All-to-often "Okeetee" is used to describe a normal corn or "Reverse Okeetee" is used to describe an average everyday albino. I never heard of the "het" zigzag thing (haven't been to a show in five years) but yeah, I'd add that to the list of "buzz" words that are used to trick unsuspecting people.

I don't think there will be a ban on Ball Pythons and I think the corn market is pretty saturated - therefore I do not foresee an influx of people trying to breed snakes that generally are a fraction of the cost of Ball Python morphs.

While corn snakes are more commonly seen in pet stores than they were 10 or 15 years ago, I think the downside of that popularity is that people have too casual of an attitude about them and think they can get all the information they need to know from the person behind the counter (which sometimes is true, but often isn't).

In addition, you have a world wide web, which often contains misinformation or bad advice. Newcomers often get their "facts" from the internet without taking to the time to investigate if their information comes from a reliable source.

Tim

Third Eye

ALL the above comments!!

As in many other things in life, alot of folks just don't have a clue as to what is fact, and what is fiction. I also tend to agree that a good majority of people these days are very "lazy" when it comes to researching things. They tend to get bits and pieces of info from word of mouth, or the internet, when the best thing to do is to read as many good snake books as possible. In my opinion, this would probably be the biggest single benefit anyone could do for themselves.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug I am with you. I also even with all the debate with creams and the emory being bred out of the lines people are breeding now still tell people that the cream line came from an albino emory x albino corn. ... I did see some awesome corns at the show. Lee Abbott had a butter cream it was the color of the inside of a cantalope..

Tom

Right on!,...that is yet another little fact that many aren't aware of. I(and probably you too) have books from decades ago that explain these well known facts.

Yes, that animal you described that Lee has sounds like a real "looker". Lee has some great looking animals!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Umm.. Isn't Corn Amel and Emoryi amel on different alleles? Regardless of which amel gene that is inherited they are still creams, regardless of who's amel gene is being used.. Please correct me if I am wrong about Corn and Emoryi Amel being on different alleles..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Tim It may be if it is im glad you brought that up. Probally a good question for Jimmy.

Tom

I would try in a couple to find out for sure, but I just don't wanna throw any of our corns in with our beautiful Amel Em... I like both animals, and heck, I even work with a couple of rootbeer projects, but I just don't wanna bring another mutant online with the rootbeers..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Are the amel in emory and corns compatable?
Tom

I don't mean to steal this post from Jimmy,....but no, the amel gene that was discovered in the wild-caught "true" amel emoryi is NOT compatible allelic-wise with cornsnake amelanism. I rather like that fact as well.

Those are really nice looking as well.

take care, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

......you would get double hets for both types if bred together.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>......you would get double hets for both types if bred together.
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

thanks for answering
I just saw this.
And.....from conversations I've had with Don S...if you breed these double hets together it can be very difficult to tell the "emoryi" albinos from the "corn" albinos
They basically look like what they are....creamsicles
some may carry the emoryi form of amelanism and some may carry the corn snake amelanism but they are still emoryi/corn crosses expressing amelanism.
some will look a little more emoryi and some a little more corn but you can have that in any corn/emoryi clutch.

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Now I can't seem to recall for sure which state the original amel emoryi was captured from. Wasn't it Kansas?

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>ALL the above comments!!
>>
>> As in many other things in life, alot of folks just don't have a clue as to what is fact, and what is fiction. I also tend to agree that a good majority of people these days are very "lazy" when it comes to researching things. They tend to get bits and pieces of info from word of mouth, or the internet, when the best thing to do is to read as many good snake books as possible. In my opinion, this would probably be the biggest single benefit anyone could do for themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Doug, Yes books are a must, but remember, word of mouth or the internet can be very viable resources and more up to date then a lot of books. I have books that still list emoryi as a sub species of guttata. You just have to know who you are getting your information from and make sure to never rely on only one source.
I've learned more through people like Tim, Don and Kathy, via the internet, then through books. And I've also learned a lot from experience.
Once again, BOOKS ARE A MUST but we just don't want to discount any source that can add to our knowledge.
By the way...I am still a "newbie"..I have kept snakes and other reptiles my entire life (at least since I was old enough to chase them down) but only started thinking about breeding snakes when I got a creamsicle in '01
So, I guess you can say I only have 7 or 8 years of "real" experience in keeping for breeding and only 6 years experience in breeding.
First clutches in '04 so this is my 6th season to breed.

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy I agree with you. I have learned alot from online and as well as from people here on the forums. It took me close to four year to figure out how to get the babies to stop tipping over the water bowls. lol I use 2oz cups. I believe Don is the one that posted about using velcro dots to hold a cup to the bottom and then add another cup into it for the water.
Tom

There is also the difference between 'knowledge' and 'experience'. I have been reading about and learning more and more about reptiles for over 9 years, maybe more. I have always been fascinated about them and researched libraries etc for information about the local amphibians and snakes in my area when I was a kid (long before 'Internet' was even known to me). Desktop computers weren't readily available either, till my teens when the Commodore 64 came out. (I think the Tandy and Mac systems were later...can't remember).

So back then word of mouth and books was the only source of information on reptiles and amphibians. There is alot of information out now, in all forms. Quite a bit is rehashed info that has not changed for 20 years..other information is new and often suspect due to its 'newness'.

Some 'old' methods are often said to be the best...and have worked for long time keepers/breeders, but often new knowledge revealed risks in the old ways. Here knowledge and experience often collide.

Experience is the practical knowledge...and can reveal the difference between a person new to the hobby completely but has done their research for years prior..and just never kept any animals. This person would have lots of knowledge, but little to no experience. Doesn't mean their knowledge is useless, just its not always as easy to 'translate' that knowledge into practicality, especially when no snake or lizard is exactly like any other.

So setting up conditions for the snake to thrive in 'by the book' doesn't mean the snake will find it suitable to itself. It may not be quite as warm as it likes, or cool, etc. So trial and error and practical experience comes into play. That and not every possible answer is given in books, forums, etc. and something minor a experienced person would know, may get overlooked by the person who never bred before.

An example would be say, a computer savy person like me, instructing a person who barely understands how a computer works, but has read a few books about computers (say how to use MS Word and PC's for Dummies...) may not realize by my instruction 'click on start' that I mean left click.

And I think I shouldn't try and explain a point when I am suffering from too much heat and humidity..as I completely forgotten what the point was...sorry. Hope something interesting was revealed here.
-----
PHLdyPayne

LOL im glad you didnt mention the Comodor Vic 20
Tom

I thought about mentioning the Commodore Pet...but didn't want to seem too old
-----
PHLdyPayne

Oh thanks for reminding me how damn old I really am.. *LOL* Used to hate it when I would type in a 500 line program and have the program not work.. Whats worse was using the cassette tape drive to save everything.. *LOL* Or was that actually kind of cool?

Regards.. Tim of T and J

LOL Tim all of that on a 12" black and white tv, the tape drive was so noisy.

Tom

The 64 was a leap .. *LOL* Then there was the 128, of course the trash 80 was something else and finally first Mac's too.. *LOL*

Those are very good points. There are some modern day books that serve as good "instruction manuals" on how to keep and breed Corn Snakes.

But a book is no substitute to visiting people and seeing and comparing the different ways that hobbyists keep and breed their snakes. For some, it's hard to imagine that there's no "best" substrate, heating method, feeding schedule, etc. that applies universally to all Corn Snakes.

You can read all you want about how to probe or "pop" snakes in a book, but doing it is a whole 'nother matter. And you can read about how to produce baby snakes, but it's just not the same as experiencing the excitement of doing so.

There's a lot of good advice on forums as well. There are some very experienced people willing to share advice on topics that often aren't covered in books.

Perhaps the best "experience" a person can acquire is to realize that not all Corn Snakes are the same and to study the individual habits of the snakes they keep. It seems that a large segment of the world is looking for a "cook book" recipe for all their corn snake needs, but it should be remembered that books are merely a guide, and nature often colors "outside of the lines."

Having said all that, I still really like books!

Tim

TRS-80 came out a few years before your commadore. FYI
-----
-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Cleopatra"
0.0.2 Crested Geckos "Vinnie" & "Cadence"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

I totally agree with you on all of what you said. Books have lots of old out-dated stuff for sure, and many don't have the latest and greatest either. I see typo errors, and mis-information in ALL of them as well. I only meant that good books are probably the most "single" benefit people can do for themselves, in conjunction with countless other ways too.

There was no internet, or any other source of info for me as a kid when I started collecting snakes in 1967!..LOL!, other than books, and from that point on, I read tons of books about them. Since then of course there are many other ways as well, not to mention(as you said) personal experience.It really boils down to....how much does the person wish to know. My thoughts have always been...as much as humanly possible. But then again, most people aren't(nor care to be) as in-depth as I am about them, as well as many others too.

take care!, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I totally agree with you on all of what you said. Books have lots of old out-dated stuff for sure, and many don't have the latest and greatest either. I see typo errors, and mis-information in ALL of them as well. I only meant that good books are probably the most "single" benefit people can do for themselves, in conjunction with countless other ways too.
>>
>> There was no internet, or any other source of info for me as a kid when I started collecting snakes in 1967!..LOL!, other than books, and from that point on, I read tons of books about them. Since then of course there are many other ways as well, not to mention(as you said) personal experience.It really boils down to....how much does the person wish to know. My thoughts have always been...as much as humanly possible. But then again, most people aren't(nor care to be) as in-depth as I am about them, as well as many others too.
>>
>> take care!, ~Doug
>>-----

1967.. I was eight and had toads, ring neck snakes and worm snakes in an old wash tub in the back yard...then I found out that toads would eat snakes if they could get them in their mouths. Talk about a surprise...lol
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

thinks back to when i was 8 i kept all the ring necks in one home made cage and glass lizards in another. the water bandits in on. and then there was the jar that had the taboo pygmy rattler in it i only had it till the guy came to pick it up .... lol but it was still mine.

Tom

Yeah,...some of my fondest memories as a kid was owning several of the "king" of all colubrids, the noble Florida Indigo!

Man,..some older kids came to my house around 1971 and wanted to sell me a HUGE Indigo that was every bit of eight and a half to nine feet long for a mere eight dollars!..LOL!. That thing was a true friggin' MONSTER!. I have never seen a bigger one since then....can you imagine,...less than a dollar per foot!..hahaha!

I recently saw an eight foot male advertised for $3,000 dollars.

Wow!,...those were different times!

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I can remember taking corn and yellow rats to pet stores and selling them for $11.00 a fot if sure list like that anymore.

Tom

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

hey doug do you have snake hooks on the end of your walker...............
adam jeffery
in 1967 my dad wasnt even with my mom yet..actually my mom was 10 years old...lol
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Ah yes grasshopper!, but with many moon cycles comes wisdom of the serpents.

hahaha!!

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

When I 1st got in to snakes there were some books out there, like Karl Caufields "The keeper and the kept" and a few others..But finding much info on husbandry, feeding and breeding was hard to come by...Most of what I learned was by trial and error and getting lucky to have some good friends in the reptile community helping me along the way...I have had snakes since the early 80's and been breeding them since 1989....I have bred from Burms and Retics to Corns and Garters..The snake that really got me into this hobby is still my favorite to this day.....You just can't beat an "Okeetee cornsnake"

You're right,...there wasn't alot back then other than your basic stuff on snakes,..field guides, etc...but all that stuff was all cool just the same. Snake keeping has certainly come a long long way since then, that's for sure!..LOL!

Ditmars and Carl Kaufield probably weren't trying to produce "turbo" corns, and Imperial pueblacorns either...LOL!!

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Also when I first got in to the hobby most of the snakes were wild caught, so you had to deal with parisites,stressed out snakes that were dehydrated, and haven't ate in months......The worst part was when you finally got your snake you had to care for all the problems that it may have, then try getting it to eat, it was like a dog chasing its tail....I know my biggest problems were, MITES and NON-EATERS....Exspecially ball pythons, to this day I can't even think of owning another one,man were they a head ache!!!!!!!!

Yeah,...lots more wild-caught stuff back then, for sure!

I had to deal with some of those same issues too, but all in all, things usually worked out pretty well with an occasional treatment.
It seems pretty hard to believe, but I can hardly remember the last time I ever had a mite on any of my animals. But this certainly depends a lot on where they are acquired from too. Of course careful scrutiny and quarantining are a must too, as well as being kept in an optimal environment.

One thing's for sure, I always check newly acquired animals out with a friggin' magnifying glass to make double-sure they don't have anything on them before being introduced with the rest of the collection. As I'm sure you'll also agree,the phrase.."an ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure" certainly applies to the herp hobby..LOL!

later, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>The first snake I ever bought was a corn snake. I bought it in Panama City Beach Florida at a little place I think called the Serpentarium.
The next was a burmese python.
These were in the early 80's
Up until then everything I had was wild caught by me.
and quite a few after that. A lot cheaper that way.
In the 80's I had five black rat snakes, one local corn snake, a Florida corn snake, an Eastern milk snake, an Eastern Black king snake, a speckled king snake, a Southern hognose snake (purchased in Panama City as well) and a seven foot burmese python.
I ended up getting rid of all the snakes and did turtle rescue for about 10 years and then got back into snakes in '01.
I think some of my favorites, though, were the ring necks I used to catch as a kid. They were just cool little snakes.
I can honestly say in all the years, with all the snakes I caught or bought, I've never had the misfortune of mites.
I removed a couple of ticks on wild black rats but that's it.
sorry I'm rambling...I don't even remember the point of my post

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I "think" the point was that you've been very fortunate not to have ever had a real mite problem either..LOL!!

That's great to hear,....and nice pic Jimmy!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

i only had a mite problem once it was with the ball pythons and red tailed boas. that my son had in his room.

Jimmy I do have to admit i miss the lil southern ring neck snakes.......

Tom

i totally agree Tim. and I did notice a big drop in the ball python prices at the tampa show in june.

Tom

Makes me wish I had a few thousand dollars to spare...would be a good time to import some nice balls at reduced prices.
-----
PHLdyPayne

I never thought this thread would be this big lol...
Tom

after asking the question of MANY herpers, that the ones who tend to STAY in the hobby for a lifetime are USUALLY those who started as kids, or at least while they were still full time students.

Ask a bunch of people who are at least 30 years old, WHEN they started, and how long have they been involved in reptile keeping? Check back in 5 or 10 years, and you will find that a VERY high percentage of those who started after graduation, will no longer be in the hobby. But most who started in their teens, and who are still involved for 5 years or so after working full time, getting married, etc, are likely to be lifelong members of our group.

Tom, I would bet the same thing is happening in the python market as well. In fact, I am even more confused when looking at some of the different ball python morphs and trying to see any real differences from normals!!! Few people are taking the time to step back and educate themselves on the genetics, and are probably more interested in selling the "the next big thing". I am amazed at the "new morphs" which are created by different genotypes that phenotypically look like the "old morphs" bred years ago. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Breed hypo anerys and they are Ghosts. Breed hypo Anery Bs and they are Phantoms!! Its great when a new gene is proven out. However, if it expresses itself in the same way as several other similar older genes, whats the benefit?? The other aspect is that some of the newbies have never seen some of the older morphs because they have been rapidly replaced by breeders selling the next hot morph. I cant remember the last time I have been to a show and specifically seen killer zigzags available. So, you potentially have a new crop of corn keepers who arent even privy to what used to be available.

I confused with all the new names like Fire,Granite,Plasma like you said a rose is a rose ... I prefer to stay with amel bloodred so on and so forth. I do agree about the python market. I saw baby ball pythons being sold as granites they had a lil spotting on the sides.... It looked like a normal ball python to me. I think next year I will be purchasing the 2010 morph guide to help me with all of these noew names.

Tom