Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have heard that the Super motley is a weak mutation and there has bee a high mortality with them. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

I want to incorporate the motley mutation into some projects and I'm at the point where I am going to get a motley, either a columbian or CA. Is the super columbian or the CA super any stronger or weaker than the other?

Input is appreciated.

Also, does anyone know if the 2 strains are compatible?

Well, I have been watching this to see if anyone would respond. This topic has been discussed here before as well as many other forums around the internet. I now own the CA Motleys and hope to get a Colombian Motley soon.

I have done some recearch on this topic about the Supers and for the most part they die before they reach maturity. That doesn't mean that one here or there hasn't made it to maturity. I would stay away from the Super Motleys if I were you. It's my opinion, but I think producing Super Motleys is a complete waist of life.

There are known Motley breeders who know these answers but do not want to come forward in the public forums. Some have different reasons. It's my opinion but to with hold information like that is selfish. Some people are more then willing to share information and help us as a community, and some are selfish and are only out for personal gain. I have spoke to super Motley producers face to face and even over the phone about this, but they just won't post publicaly.

If a known Super Motley producer who has sold Super Motleys came out and openly admitted that they die, it would make them look bad and some people would more then likely be outraged. Some people paid or traded a great deal to get a Super Motley.

If you want a regular Motley then I say go for it. The Motley Boa is an awesome Boa and they have a lot of potential. I think some of the Motley Sunglows I have seen are just beautiful. I am sure there will be more Motley combonations that will be even nicer in the future and I can't wait to see them. So get all the regular Motley Boas you want. You really can't go wrong. Just don't try to produce the Super form.

As far as the two being compatible, I don't know. I never asked anyone that question. I am sure someone knows that as well. I have seen regular motley boas that were from a CA Motley male to a normal Colombian female breeding.

Good luck with your projects.

Hypomelanism and Motley seem as if they run on the same Genus. I
FEEL IN TIME, the Super Motley will produce, and lets looks at
some KEY FACTORS....

1- Whoever got them first MOST LIKELY bred to ANYTHING
2- Then those ANYTHINGS bred to the parents (and other relatives)
3- We are just starting to OUTCROSS
4- BREEDERS KNOW HOW TO OUTCROSS, just wanted to hit the jackpot
FIRST..

This is in NO WAY trying to offend ANYONE. Only observation on
my side. WE ALL wantto be first, no one is at fault, unless they
are knowingly In-Breeding them 2-3-4-? Generations just to make
FAST MONEY QUICK. That to me is bad care for the animals. Know-
ing with these Boas is KEY, most know breeding back to eachother
(Son x mom) is not too bad, but taking those offspring and then
breeding back to mom instead of taking that male and breeding 2
females then start the outcrosing to save time is WRONG. I also
thought we were in this for the 'Love of The Boas', not 'Make it
RICH Quick'.

IMO............ again this is in NO WAY trying to offend
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....

I have no doubt in my mind that super motleys that survive will be produced. The issue is inbreeding. Too many people rush straight out, buy a pair of related, bred those, etc, etc, etc. its time to outbred folks. Outbred, then swap with other breeders for their outbred stock.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Well said Brother
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....

We all have our opinions and this is mine. I will say that I am not trying to offend anyone. Here are some things to look at.

ALL Super Motleys are born with a funky shaped head and bug eyes. Ask yourself, why is that?

Also, when breeding two regular Motley Boas together you not only create Super Motleys but also normal Motleys in the same litter as well as normal boas. The regular Motleys and normals that were litter mates to the Supers do not have any deformaties and go on to reach maturity.

Now, why is it that the Super form is deformed and the regular is not when both parents were Motleys?

Why do the regular Motleys and normals that were Super Motley litter mates live to reach a reproductive state?

Again, this is my opinion, but I feel that the genetic building blocks of the Super form are flawed in more ways then one, including the genes for the outward appereance as well as the inner workings.

In the other morph boas that have come along there were some issues with in breeding. But when done not ALL of them were born abnormal looking. For example, The Albino Boa years back in some cases the litter may of had some one eyed or even no eyed babies. Now some of those litter mate albinos were totally normal.

That is not the case with Super Motleys. ALL (not some) Super Motlets have outward deformaties, as anyone can see, just look at one.
The genes that create the inner workings we can not see.

I am not a Science expert.

Maybe I should say molecular structure instead of genes or genetics, I don't know.

There is clearly something that is not lining up properly with the Super form and in my opinion it has nothing to do with in breeding.

It is my understanding that there are some Ball Python Super forms that die as well.

I think the Super Motley is a very nice looking boa. I think these abnormalities will always exist no matter how out crossed or in bred they are.

Again, this is my opinion and I am not wanting to offend anyone. I wish some others I have talked to would post in a public forum.

I am glad someone brought this up again.

I am in agreement 100%. Been there, done that. I've been open about them any time it comes up in public forums. Some people just don't get it.

I've heard of Super Motley's that lived to 4 years of age. I've heard of Super Motley males "attempting" to breed. I've never heard of "ANY" Super Motley reproducing. Not from a male or female Super Motley. I've seen pictures of 1 and 2 year old Super Motleys. They look thin and lack muscle tone. They seem smaller for their age than they should. It's like no matter how hard you try, they just waste away.... very slowly.

Unless someone posts a picture of a "healthy adult" Super Motley.... I'd say much of what you've heard is true.

The Non-Super Motleys seem fine. If you want to work with the Motley genes, go for it.

If you want to make a Super Motley, go for it.

If you do make a Super Motley, please come back and let us know how things went.

Not sure if the CA Motley and Colombian Motley are compatible. If you do that breeding. Please come back and let us know.

Breed CA x Colombian Motley.... I feel it would be bad Mojo. IMO
just to say whic one would take the Characteristics?? I would say
keep with the outcrossing and ONE DAY (Like the Super Jungle)just
ONE DAY, we can have something breedable. I still think it has to
do with Linebreeding-Inbreeding. I hope AI did not offend Anyone.
God Bless
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....

Have any CA Super Motleys lived long enough to reproduce?

I don't know if it's an inbreeding problem or not. It could be that "any" Morph that has a Super form might not be able to reproduce.

It could be that they might not even survive very long. How many Dominant/coDomanant Morphs are out there that have a Super form? How many of them have reproduced? I know a Hypo can be a "super", but they need to be bred to be proven out. I'm talking about Supers that have a distinct different look from the Non-Super form.

So far, the only Supers, that I know of, that are different from the Non-Supers are Jungles, Motleys, and perhaps the Roswell. The Roswell hasn't been around long enough to know about that one. Of course, the mortality rate in the Roswells was pretty high. At least, in the litters produced so far. The Hets did fine, but not the supers.

Is there a Super in Arabesque?

Anyway, it could be that Supers are genetically defective, because they're "Supers". It could be that it's best not to make them in the first place.

I know I'll be waiting to see how it goes before I ever attempt to make any.

The Leopard is OBVIOUSLY a Dominant morph, not Recessive. Being
that they are Visual Hets would make them Dom, not Rec. IMO of
course, but would be willing to debate. As far as I know, Leo's
are the ONLY (besides Super Hypomelanism) Dominant Morph that has
SUCCESSFULLY REPRODUCED. Again IMO. I will not believe that they
are recessive due to what goes on with ALL the babies. I will
leave it at that. God Bless and I love your comments. I do
believe we will see them thrive, but we need to SLOW DOWN. I feel
in the next 10 or so years we will have successful breedings with
ALL those Dominant Morphs you mentioned above. God Bless
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....

I didn't forget the Leopards.

It's just that not many consider them dominant. Most consider them recessive. Even on the "Boa List" of genetic traits, it's under the recessive genes.

From the first time I saw "Het Leopards", I couldn't understand why they were called "Hets" or why the Leopard was considered a recessive trait. Definate visual difference there. It's nice to know that someone else thinks the same way about them.

It is 100% OBVIOUS they are Dominant, PERIOD. Honestly, anyone
in their right mind would think the same. Pattern mutation....
hmmmm......
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....

Thanks, for the replies everyone, it has all been very helpful.

the fail to thrive super is very scary!

Don't forget about the Aztecs. Andrew

My Apologies brother, have the Super Aztecs reproduced??
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....

Kenny, I threw the Super Aztec male on a Aztec female and a normal female. Never saw anything and neither became gravid so have to wait until this coming spring. I'll be bringing the male Super Aztec to Daytona for display so come by and take a look. Take care and see everyone at Daytona. Andrew

Talk about a STEP in the right direction!! I WISH YOU WELL!!
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....