Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has there ever been a Hypomelanistic Thayeri produced?
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

A number of people have had animals that have a "hypo look", but it is the result of a light colored animal with a reduced black pattern. Produced by line breeding and not a simple trait.... But to me I can tell it is not a hypo because the black pigment they do have (while it is reduced) is a full black, it does not have that faded down color to it like I expect in a true hypo animal.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>A number of people have had animals that have a "hypo look", but it is the result of a light colored animal with a reduced black pattern. Produced by line breeding and not a simple trait.... But to me I can tell it is not a hypo because the black pigment they do have (while it is reduced) is a full black, it does not have that faded down color to it like I expect in a true hypo animal.

I agree 100% Lance....
A Hypomelanistic animal should have reduced black pigment (greyish) not a reduced pattern area where the black is usually apparent.
Take the Applegate and Baubel line Pyros for example....Not hypo but reduced areas of black as with some Thayeri I see/had with No Black pattern.
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>A number of people have had animals that have a "hypo look", but it is the result of a light colored animal with a reduced black pattern. Produced by line breeding and not a simple trait.... But to me I can tell it is not a hypo because the black pigment they do have (while it is reduced) is a full black, it does not have that faded down color to it like I expect in a true hypo animal.
>>-----

Hey Lance....have you ever seen one like this? I used to have her...Got her from Mitch Allen at the 2005 Daytona show.......
She kinda burst my bubble because I was working on some line breeding to produce what I thought were the first "NO BLACK" thayeri.....lol

-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Nice!!!

Super nice animal, but of course the head and tip of the tail have some black, so that means it is not a hypo or amel.. But with line breeding you can push the look and get some stunning animals. Only down side is that thayeri north of the border do not always look like thayeri south of the border.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>Super nice animal, but of course the head and tip of the tail have some black, so that means it is not a hypo or amel.. But with line breeding you can push the look and get some stunning animals. Only down side is that thayeri north of the border do not always look like thayeri south of the border.

Of course it is not hypo...Even if the black was absent I would not think it was hypo...Just a pattern reduction/mutation.
Because as you mentioned the black is ALL black not reduced amount of pigment...Just reduced amount of pattern.....
AND...Thayeri north of the border are products of selective propagation unlike natural selection in the wild south of the border.....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I know, I wish we could get fresh locality stock from down south, but since we can not the next best thing is to have breeding projects to make them as interesting as possible.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>I know, I wish we could get fresh locality stock from down south, but since we can not the next best thing is to have breeding projects to make them as interesting as possible.

You hit the nail on the head....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Well some of us have some pretty fresh via the "Laredo Line"
I have a pair of F1s

Male 07

Female 08

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

The line, while "fresh" is not a known locality on Mexicana, they are animals that were seized at the border, on the US side of course, and they could not go back. I forget which zoo they went through, but that does not really make much difference.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

New blood doesn't have to be locality it just has to be w/c...
And I for one could care less about locality, It doesnt matter to me on what road of what state in what county a animal was caught on. To me locality is over played and theres no way of telling if that animal was really from that locality unless you know the herper that caught them.
MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

>>New blood doesn't have to be locality it just has to be w/c...
>>And I for one could care less about locality, It doesnt matter to me on what road of what state in what county a animal was caught on. To me locality is over played and theres no way of telling if that animal was really from that locality unless you know the herper that caught them.
>>MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

Apparently Chris you have never worked with Alterna......
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Ohhhhh but I have heres a "generic"....

>>Ohhhhh but I have heres a "generic"....
>>

Nice blairs, but that's the difference between a $50 generic snake and a $300 locale specific snake.....

I am not talking just about the money...I COULD CARE LESS...just as long as the hobby pays for itself you know...And stays fun...

What I am saying is the $300 locale specific snakes are rarities, with collection data.....thus the higher price.....

And true....Not all people are trustworthy.....Because they are people.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

generic or not... Thats not a 50$ animal.

>>generic or not... Thats not a 50$ animal.

I was exaggerating to get a point/opinion across Chris......LOL
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I like having all the data possible on any animals I work with, and yes I work a lot with Alterna and having that kind of data sort of spoiled me in that sense. Now I wish the same was an option on the Mexicana which I also very much enjoy working with. But instead we have lines that are either credited to an old school breeder or in the case of the Laredo line a port of entry where animals were seized by authorities. I know it is what we have to work with, and I have resigned myself to that fact and accept it the way it is. But I also know our data is not complete, it is not an expectation to restock the wild or anything like that, I just like knowing the full history and appreciate the subtle variation between different breeding populations of the same species.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Man Lance....I was saving a similar post to this for when Chris replied to my post....LOL

Well said....There are subtle differences from locality to locality...Some are pretty extreme. Take the Black Blairs Xmas Mt. Locale Alterna and set it next to a Speckled River Road or Black Gap...

And does everyone know that their is a certain locale in Mexico's Thayeri range that only inhabits Milk Snake Phase Thayeri?

It is the Santa Rosa Canyon in Sierra Madre Occidental, Nuevo Leon.....I am not saying all MSPs come from here but all specimens found here are MSPs......
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>It is the Santa Rosa Canyon in Sierra Madre Occidental, Nuevo Leon.....I am not saying all MSPs come from here but all specimens found here are MSPs......

It's just about the whole eastern flank, and it is an arc shaped range that includes localities in both Nuevo Leon and Tamaulipas.
Those snakes evolved separate of "leonis" and then mixed with them at a later date in the Canyons and Valleys that connect east /west. West of Santa Rosa Canyon you can see some mixing going on. Not all the MSP are perfect annulata mimics and a lot of them are what we call intermediates in that area. "Leonis" IMO evolved directly from mex mex in the geographic areas west of there trending from SE to NW and then mixed with that eastern flank snake in those east/west valleys/canyons.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>>>It is the Santa Rosa Canyon in Sierra Madre Occidental, Nuevo Leon.....I am not saying all MSPs come from here but all specimens found here are MSPs......
>>
>>
>>It's just about the whole eastern flank, and it is an arc shaped range that includes localities in both Nuevo Leon and Tamaulipas.
>>Those snakes evolved separate of "leonis" and then mixed with them at a later date in the Canyons and Valleys that connect east /west. West of Santa Rosa Canyon you can see some mixing going on. Not all the MSP are perfect annulata mimics and a lot of them are what we call intermediates in that area. "Leonis" IMO evolved directly from mex mex in the geographic areas west of there trending from SE to NW and then mixed with that eastern flank snake in those east/west valleys/canyons.

Thanks Joe....Very interesting that the canyons/valleys isolate populations...Seems logical though....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

No, Canyons and Valleys allow gene flow. Huge mountain ranges isolate populations.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>No, Canyons and Valleys allow gene flow. Huge mountain ranges isolate populations.
>>-----
>>Herp Conservation Unlimited
>>Conservation through captive propagation
>>Mexicana Group Directory
>>Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Yep...After I typed that I re read your post and knew I missed the point....LOL

Wish there was an edit feature....again....

It is interesting how the mountain ranges direct the gene flow down the canyons and valley....Easily traveling I guess?
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>>Easily traveling I guess?

Compared to the massive Sierra Madre yes. But even that can be breached after eons of time.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Yeah there is I have tons of hypos, amels, peanutbutters, postive & neg amels, I even have purple ones... I got them all!!!
Hehehehe
MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

>>Yeah there is I have tons of hypos, amels, peanutbutters, postive & neg amels, I even have purple ones... I got them all!!!
>>Hehehehe
>>MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

LOL....That's funny Chris....Sounds like someone I know real well...
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."