Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I flipped my first "greenish" eastern yesterday. It was a very large male.

A couple comparison shots before I released him.

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Joe

Cool find, Joe! I prefer that red eastern in the comparison shot but he still is a nice find, no doubt. Is that red one an adult? If so, the male you found looks huge! How long would you say he is?

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Dave, I prefer the red ones as well, but it was very interesting to see this one.

The red female is about 28" which I would consider a young adult. I tried to get the big guy to straighten out along a wall and estimated him at just under 36". He was the biggest one I have ever found.
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Joe

......remember,,,the big old male probably looked JUST like the red one some time ago...maybe 10 years or more ago......he could be over 20 years old...25......he looks about like they do when they get older....like us...they grey and brown out....
.....hmmm.....my hair greyed out not brown.....

.....good luck.....!
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

I have herd comments like the one you make about red eastern milk juvies turning brown with age. That has never been my experience. I have hatched brown and red neonates from the same clutch. I have kept red easterns for many years and have never had one turn brown. Sure the red looses its pop so to speak after many many years but the color is still red. I have observed hundreds of wild easterns hear in south eastern PA as well as many other states and many of the large adults have been red and orange in color. I beleive the adult color is reached well before the end of the first year. In some cases the color continues to brighten for several years. I have 2 such animals now. I have a 15 year old female and she is not as bright as when she was hatched but she is still very orange. I beleive the color transformation from red to brown is over stated in my experience. I don't think the snake you are looking at was ever red. He might have been slightly purple for a few months that's it. Am I alone with this experience?

It rather depends... when referring to southern PA as just about all of the Atlantic 'piedmont' easterns you have a chance to literally throw anything out of a clutch. You're right on there. Amazingly varied habitat reflects phenotypically. As for the 'fading' holding universally true. Again you're right absolutely not. Problem is that yes alot can turn moreso brown. If not most. Some can lighten w/ age. I have a MD female that just keeps getting lighter and lighter. Though a bit of a different story there same general concept.
Also I have had animals hatch brown or very dark maroon and go the opposite way and actually 'redden' up though that's not the norm as I'm told. Unless w/ some other triangulum influence. Like 'temporalis' crosses up in NJ and NY and syspila intergrades in AL and NC then it can actually be quite commonplace. With some of those guys you really ought to hold onto them for a year or even more to really decide what you're playing with.
It amazes me that more people aren't fascinated by them... they have a huge range and remarkably wide possibilities in phenotypes. Some rival the nicest and flashiest triangulum I've ever seen (in my humble opinion) albeit perhaps more subtly in most cases. It can be tough to top a smoking red eastern milk sometimes...

Chris

the pics are all easterns?....
nuchal and head blotches are all over the place...syspila influence it actually looks like...maybe it isn't....but looks it.....some pics have the color of Baltimore Co easterns...they are lighter and grow to lighten more at times...(the few I have seen).....the one pic reminds me of a red I have that may or may not be influenced by eastern they say...?...

anyways....pretty...

...
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

I have had a few others tell me that it's just an old milk that lost its red as well. I'm not sold on that theory, but I don't have enough experience with them to have a great opinion at this time.

I have found red and "brownish" adults before, but this one that I pictured definately looked a lot different than any other normal eastern I've found. The blotches had no red/faded red/orange coloration at all, more of a green/gray.

Has anyone ever had a captive eastern long enough for it "to loose it's red coloration" and turn the color of the one shown?

Is it just an old milk??? maybe. Is it a color variation that its had since birth??? maybe. It is a recessive trait??? maybe.

All I do know is that is was a very interesting milk that I hope to see again some day. Hopefully I (or anyone else) will find a smaller/younger one lacking the red/orange coloration some day which may prove that is just not an old milk that "lost" his color.

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Joe

Also, the other large male that I posted photos of a couple of weeks ago was found within 50 ft of this "greenish" one. It was just as long, although slightly thinner, as the one lacking red color, but had plenty of color??? If color loss is directly related to age why hasn't it lost its color? Or when will it loose its color????

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Joe

Joe, with respect to your pic taking ability, this is one of those that likely..."you gotta see in person". Back to coloration, up here in Mass and other northern climes the do hatch out red only to fade to brownish. Size and age are not always directly related as some snakes grow fast(hence big snakes with red)and its only in the young and immature animals that we can really figure out exactly whats going on. It would have been nice to compare that one to the Green I have here, lets hope some hatch a different color to begin with so we can start putting all these issues to rest.

>>Joe, with respect to your pic taking ability, this is one of those that likely..."you gotta see in person". Back to coloration, up here in Mass and other northern climes the do hatch out red only to fade to brownish. Size and age are not always directly related as some snakes grow fast(hence big snakes with red)and its only in the young and immature animals that we can really figure out exactly whats going on. It would have been nice to compare that one to the Green I have here, lets hope some hatch a different color to begin with so we can start putting all these issues to rest.

Jeff, thanks for chiming in.

You are absolutely right about having to see it in person. The pics make it look a lot more brown than it actually was. I did see one of the green ones you had in person last fall and this was extremely similar, just a little darker than the one you had. If I ever find another I'll let you know so that we can compare them.

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Joe

For comparison Jeff. The first photo is one of the "green monster" milk of yours last fall. The second and third photos are of the one I found. The background color on the one I found is a little darker and the oulines a little thicker, but the blotches were basically the same color.

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Joe

mine....

sunlight.....you (anyone) can keep an eastern milk for 300 years and it may never turn brown , it never sees the sunlight...

...my ideas....others agree....

...I think they are all pretty much born red or as you said purple...?....(think that's what I read?)....red /white/black basically...the white turns grey alot and the red turns brown alot.....easterns are just like that...you know....

PA.....we got 9 in one day....most the same red as the first pic, but the 4 foot male was brown as the one in origional pic....4 foot female had a little better tint to her....just down the road a few miles they are ornage tinted, bellies and all.....isolated patches of them can be all kinds of different degrees of colors....you and I and all know this too...

anyways......

.........YES some will brown out in a year....some are brown and grey and ugly as squat....I got a female here that's butt ugly...she's from Lancaster Co Pa...(only eastern I got ,a "rescued" snake).......

.......sunlight plays a big part of color I think.....

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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

>>
>>.......sunlight plays a big part of color I think.....
>>
>>....

Not quite sure I'm sold on this thought either.

Milk snakes are primarily nocturnal and spend the vast majority of their lifes underground. Although I have heard of some being found out basking, I don't believe its very common.
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Joe

I have found hundreds of these, and only twice were they ever on the surface, never in the "sunlight". As close as they get to the surface is to be found under cover thermoregulating, if it wasnt for this we likely would not find em at all. I understand the variability, thats what I really like about em, but that alone doesnt account for all the pigmentation CHANGES we see--in the red as well as the white and black.

....it has been said in here over and over again..
and I know you all read it over and over in all the books that copy each other and then just put the credits in the back of the book with what they just rewrote from a different book.....

so...they all say subterranian....underground...spend all the time under ground....

...has anyone ever found a milk underground here???...really...anyone...anyone digging a deep hole and found them???....no...they are under boards and rocks and leaves and piles of stuff and car doors,fridge doors, boards,tin, etc etc etc.....but never found underground....just under stuff...just like all snakes...hiding......

so anyways...the thought is...they come UP all the time...they just hide really well....I do not find them, I do not have time to look for them , pity me, it suxx....so this year...I finally went and knew where they were, and went with an "authority" of the area....9 found....as follows....wood,wood,wood,wood,rock,wood,wood,inside sand bag,rock/leaves.........all above the low wet levels..all indry levels...dry, warm.....the one under rocks and leaves was along the road...like if you blink and go a little bit over white line you just ran it over on the road...warm, dry, stone...some leaves and 2 small rocks it would not fit under...so basically...it was sunning...the sand bag one was a foot from this one, behind a stop sign.......rock was on top of big rock pile along stream and the other 6 were under wood high and dry, even though there was wet or damp wood all over....all wanted warm..and the 4 foot female was not even under wood it was open, I just didn't see it till it went under wood....

.....anyways...sun ...I bet it does fade alot of snakes color...

and YEEEEEES I bet alof of milks (etc) would be just as butt ugly if they never saw sunlight ever...they are just going to be butt ugly....no matter what....

jeans fade to white in the sun, so do pumpkins, amel boas ? or was it burms...turn an odd white color too...yet humans turn brown.....so is milksnake pigment like human pigment or like denim or brick or ???like what>????...

......and asked long ago in this thread somewhere? why easterns are not worked with....they are not legal where they are found usually...this is why....

...why I got 4 locals of reds and 3 temps and sinny and nelson and campbell's and hondos....etc etc etc....and corn and caves' and Koreans and balls and balls and balls...(colubrids, eat once defecate 4 times...balls eat 4 times defecate once a month)...LOL

....>>>off this way...?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

>>....it has been said in here over and over again..
>>and I know you all read it over and over in all the books that copy each other and then just put the credits in the back of the book with what they just rewrote from a different book.....
>>
>>so...they all say subterranian....underground...spend all the time under ground....
>>
>>...has anyone ever found a milk underground here???...really...anyone...anyone digging a deep hole and found them???....no...they are under boards and rocks and leaves and piles of stuff and car doors,fridge doors, boards,tin, etc etc etc.....but never found underground....just under stuff...just like all snakes...hiding......
>>
>>so anyways...the thought is...they come UP all the time...they just hide really well....I do not find them, I do not have time to look for them , pity me, it suxx....so this year...I finally went and knew where they were, and went with an "authority" of the area....9 found....as follows....wood,wood,wood,wood,rock,wood,wood,inside sand bag,rock/leaves.........all above the low wet levels..all indry levels...dry, warm.....the one under rocks and leaves was along the road...like if you blink and go a little bit over white line you just ran it over on the road...warm, dry, stone...some leaves and 2 small rocks it would not fit under...so basically...it was sunning...the sand bag one was a foot from this one, behind a stop sign.......rock was on top of big rock pile along stream and the other 6 were under wood high and dry, even though there was wet or damp wood all over....all wanted warm..and the 4 foot female was not even under wood it was open, I just didn't see it till it went under wood....
>>
>>.....anyways...sun ...I bet it does fade alot of snakes color...
>>
>>and YEEEEEES I bet alof of milks (etc) would be just as butt ugly if they never saw sunlight ever...they are just going to be butt ugly....no matter what....
>>
>>jeans fade to white in the sun, so do pumpkins, amel boas ? or was it burms...turn an odd white color too...yet humans turn brown.....so is milksnake pigment like human pigment or like denim or brick or ???like what>????...
>>
>>......and asked long ago in this thread somewhere? why easterns are not worked with....they are not legal where they are found usually...this is why....
>>
>>...why I got 4 locals of reds and 3 temps and sinny and nelson and campbell's and hondos....etc etc etc....and corn and caves' and Koreans and balls and balls and balls...(colubrids, eat once defecate 4 times...balls eat 4 times defecate once a month)...LOL
>>
>>....>>>off this way...?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>JY
>>Scales-N-Tails
>>reptiles ltd.

WOW...Thanks for additional thought...I think???

Let me ask you a couple questions. Are you trying to say that milks do not spend a majority of time underground because people do not find them by "digging a deep hole"? If so I liken this statement to ex MLB player Carl Everett who didn't believe in dinasaurs because he "never saw one".

I think it would be pretty ridiculous to think your odds would be good to find a milk by grabbing a shovel or using an excavator to dig a hole in an environment where milks are know to habitate. This is why they are found during the times when the come up to the surface, and like you mentioned, amost always under cover.

Secondly, are you trying to strengthen the argument that the sun is causing this lightening by saying they are always found under stuff? Again, not sure I'm buying that. Sure they must spend some time on the surface, but enough to be affected by the sunlight??? Maybe, but this certainly doesn't convince ME.

I'm sorry that you think all milks are "butt ugly" but I don't agree with that either.

Sounds like you really enjoy your balls. Have fun playing with them.
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Joe

and again, they read it their way not the way it's written actually

yes they are underground, sort of...here's an example of UNDERGROUND for ya...guy, PA, winter, milks are where in winter??? undergorund...way far down where it's 53 degrees brumatiing? correct?..???.then why did a guy see a little hole in his grandkids sand box...stick a finger in a few inches and find an adult eastern?...20 degrees out...???...(.yes he left it go, above ground, snow,yes he is a moron...like said...20 degrees out...)

yes they are ugly and pretty and all different...never said all ugly...just the ugly ones are ugly...we aren't talking about red ones, just faded ones???brown, green, greys.......pay attention here....

yes they see the sun alot more than you here say...this is the point...they cross roads on HOT days...see the pics in here of dead ones on the road, not under the road...?...they lay on top of the cover IN the sun ....even if people don't see them.....well...some people...some have found 200000 easterns and never saw one on top of the ground yet....others found 9 and saw one on top of ground...more or less 2....

....anyways....Bye Bye....
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.you like my balls too don't ya?....

I do less trouble ...

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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

I didn't read it my way. I asked you a couple of follow up questions and responded to what I THOUGHT you were trying to say.

Your.....posts......are.....impossible......to follow.
If you communicated........what you actually......think you are.......trying to say....people might be able to understand what you are .................trying to say!

Thanks again!
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Joe

my post are written just fine...and I don't put dots in the middle of sentences like you just did...

...and I only responded here to add another point of intrest

Telling a friend today how you and another guy here think easterns NEVER come up ON TOP and never lay out in the sun....never...he laughed and said...bull, "they come up all the time and lay out"..."at my grandfather's house we used to watch them lay on top of the rock piles after rains all the time" ,"and down in MD (very north edge of MD) and all they were on top of the rocks a couple times".....

I told him ,yea, I know...they lay up all the time...but people only look under stuff for them...

anyways.........JM and JS are gods...they know all there is and all there ever will be about L.t.t. so....I give up....HA!

....>>>>>
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"Isn't that just special?"

Listen bud... to use your terms ..."pay attention here".... "and again, they read it their way not the way it's written actually"

First off, I by no means consider myself a "god". Where the HELL did I ever say easterns "NEVER come up on top"? Quite the contrary.... follow along here... THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM ME...

"Secondly, are you trying to strengthen the argument that the sun is causing this lightening by saying they are always found under stuff? Again, not sure I'm buying that. Sure they must spend some time on the surface, but enough to be affected by the sunlight???"

Did you pay attention???...>>> I said "SURE THEY MUST SPEND SOME TIME ON THE SURFACE"!!!>

"I have had a few others tell me that it's just an old milk that lost its red as well. I'm not sold on that theory, but I don't have enough experience with them to have a great opinion at this time."

Definitely a qoute from someone who as you say is a "GOD"!!! LMAO!!!

MY qoutes and MY thoughts are mine... not JS's thoughts...Thanks for giving up.... trying to understand what I ACTUALLY WRITE...and THINK!!!
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Joe

Night crawlers too—when I find them as opposed to when I don’t find them—are out at night, are found under stuff at the surface, and can be observed coming right out from underground when it rains, but they live in the ground.

But does it matter? Even if it’s assumed that Eastern Milks spend lots of time above ground and in direct sunlight, what is the claim here? They are red and kept out of the sun, or they are non-red and faded by the sun, or else they are “but ugly”? The ugliness we’re referring to is genetic right? I’ve seen snakes I thought were ugly because they are skinny, scarred, missing an eye, missing part of a tail. But if they “are just going to be butt ugly....no matter what” then isn’t that genetic? And if genetics causes some snakes of this species to change into less desired colors, how could you ever tell if it is the sun causing the others to change? And as for the comparison to people, if adult milks are brown because they are suntanned, it would make sense that after a few sheds, they would return to their normal coloration if kept out of the sun.

My guess is that Eastern Milk snake coloration, including color changes throughout its lifespan, is genetic. My guess is that adult snakes looking less like pieces of candy at the age they are able to reproduce is a genetic adaptation having something to do with species survival. I’m also guessing that if we could change the color of Eastern Milks through their captive setups vs selective breeding, there’d be a lot more stunning Eastern Milk snakes in captive collections.

But I kind of hope I’m wrong J I love how they look before they mature. But as a fan of Carpet Pythons as well as Milk Snakes, I’m used to dramatic coloration changes as a normal part of development in snakes. Any real influence to this process that I’ve observed has been the result of selective breeding.

You are right they are terrestrial not fossorial... their head structure alone better indicates that yet it still had practical applications in a fossorial sense. Also keep in mind their head structure changes and broadens into adulthood. Some specific spots don't coincidentally and that could imply a more fossorial existence. If but in the sense that they navigate their terrain as such... not that they live a subterranean life. But they could =) They can move about shale and other rock rubble to dig deeper down. Who's to say their hibernaculums have 'front doors?' Matter of fact common sense rather denies that prospect. So they do have an ability to do so. Yes we often find them at rest under artificial media. That pretty much goes the same for most terrestrial milks. Does that mean that's where they all choose to reside? LOL... nope not likely. I'd speculate that more northerly populations may have communal wintering dens and the whatnot with more commonality. More southern forms may well have to dig down in loose soil or even decomposing flora. The reason they tend to be so successful is their adaptability. A simple answer is no we don't go digging about to find these guys... but frankly who's ever thought of going into the field in the middle of winter w/ a shovel to attempt to dig these guys out to find out? Just one observation as I've never actually dug any out myself. Talking on the phone w/ a friend just a few days ago. He was reminiscing of many years ago herping in NJ and NY. He thought it was odd that he once dug out a neonate L.t.t. at the base of a shale rubble pile he suspected to be a hibernaculum. It was well more than 6" underground and the soil was not loose. For reference's sake he said it was early spring and he was hoping for some basking animals. Perhaps these little ones venture out early and get a head start? Alot of these dens are shared and easterns can be parasitic off of smaller terrestrial and fossorial snakes the like. I've long wondered about prolonged inactivity as well. Does everything stay down the whole time? I suspect not... Anyway this is by no means a scientific reference but to his credit my friend is quite well reputed on L.t.t. Just some food for thought -- in one huge paragraph =)

Chris

Beautiful Easterns, the red seems to be holding on to its color into maturity.

Very Cool!!! Go find more and post up man!!!!!

Chris