Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright... this started 4 years ago now when I bought a trio of Leucistic Texas Ratsnakes (All blue eyed without bug eye issues)from Joe Esposito of Thoroughbred Exotics. My male died last year after an accident with an undertank heater... so this year I decided I was going to buy a new male.. Found someone selling one on that other site we aren't allowed to mention here... but this guy is much bigger bodied and heavier than my females..which are almost 5.5 ft

Both females are pure white.. no trace or speck of any other color on them. The male I got in today is 6ft plus.. pure white save for his head and a small trail down his back. The color is a coral pink, the top of the head is heavily marked but the trail of coral color only goes down the spine of the snake.. Mostly seems to be just outlining color on most of that strip of scales.. Now, of course my question becomes this.. If he's a Leucistic black rat and I breed him to my Leucistic Texas rats... will I still get Leucistic Ratsnakes? I know there's been talk that Leucistic Texas Ratsnakes have been crossed with black rat snakes to get the gene into the Black rats.. so if he's an intergrade.. will I still get what I expect? And does anyone know whats going on with that little bit of coral pink coloration that covers the scales of his head and outlines 2 rows of scales down his back? Has anyone seen this in Leucistic rats before or could it be he's something other than leucistic? Just curious.. and hoping I get what I'm looking for when I pair my girls with him.. Any info will be greatly appreciated..

Mel
-----
Mel Goodrich
RavenCrest Reptiles: Sale and Rescue
drune@charter.net

~Updated animal list coming soon~

The leucistic gene is allelic(compatible) with each other, so you will produce all leucistic offspring, regardless if one's a Texas, and one's a Black rat. Not that anyone can tell by looking at it, because the meristics in both obsoleta are virtually identical.

The strange faint coloring you see in some is fairly common, I have a Texas that exhibits a yellowish coloration, and especially on her head.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

..well...since leucey blacks were made by Larry Rouch by crossing leucey Texans with blacks...it should all be the same thing and ok to do......why not...

.....have fun....
.
.
-----
JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

Yeah, I know!..LOL!, who really knows the real deal about them for absolute??. I've heard several stories over the years that involved some pretty credible people in the past, and I could swear that there was at least one, maybe two in the past that were alleged to have been caught in the wild,...maybe Ohio or something like that(can't quite remember now). BUT!! who's to say it wasn't really some guy's leucistic Texas that escaped, and was actually "re-captured" that day, and thought to be a genuine Black Rat?..LOL!

Sort of like the center of a "Tootsie Roll Pop",...the world will never know..LOL!. Heck, people in general can't keep from crossing animal's that are noticeably different, much less two that look virtually identical..LOL!...know what I mean?

Additionally, if there really "is" a true leusistic form of both types, over this long a time period, and all the people that breed stuff, MANY out in the hobby are SURELY going to be of mixed origin anyway. So, like you said, if you like the look, go for it,......they are what they are..LOL!

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

See, that picture you posted is generally what I see when I see pictures of supposedly pure Leucistic TEXAS rats.. Their body shape is thinner, they're more streamlined, no color on them whatsoever and my 2 females are both representatives that look like the one posted there.. Now, those I've seen claimed as Leucy black rats seem to have a rounder shape... a heavier body, less streamlined and more bulky. That isn't to say they aren't all intergraded and mixed anyway.... maybe some of them just lean more towards the look of one or the other. Just comparing my 2 females to this male I got in there is a very visible difference in body type and head shape... and a very marked difference in attitudes.. My 2 Texas females are hell on wheels..this new male is more placid and even generally just less flighty.. Just observations really...

But regardless of all that, I thank you for the info that I'll get what I expected anyway.. I do love these guys even if they are a pain in butt to deal with in terms of temperment.. Make excellent animals to work with on hook skills for your basic fast and contortionistic species of venomous snakes, been keeping for 13 years now and I'm just gaining the confidence to start with some mildly venomous rear-fanged colubrids. Too bad the only rear-fanged snake thats outlawed in my state by name(VT) is the False-Water cobra of which I want a pair badly eventually..And any front fanged snakes are banned completely here but I can't say much because I helped the founder of VTherp.org write up the proposals for restrictions and allowences in my home state. Ah well.. Maybe I'll move elsewhere eventually if the idiots don't manage to work complete bans in to every state in the next few years.

But thanks again for the info... Can't wait for my first clutch of leucy's now...

Mel
-----
Mel Goodrich
RavenCrest Reptiles: Sale and Rescue
drune@charter.net

~Updated animal list coming soon~

Hmm,...yes, I've heard all of those comparisons too, but I'm not so sure I would invest too much trust in them. As you surely know, individuals of MANY types of snakes can, and do look very different from one another, even within the same clutch, and even head and body features too. And like I said before, meristic-wise they are virtually identical as well.

Unless a Black Rat is collected a FAR distance from Texas, many authorities would consider them basically to be not much more than a clinal variant of sorts. I can honestly say that with many specimens I have seen I can often detect notable traits of either/or in both as well, at least with many that is.
The orange/yellow skin between the scales is something often seen in many "so-called" Black Rats. I have owned Black Rats in the past that were absolutely SOLID black, without a single dorsal scale being anything other than black, the skin too. These were very likely from lineages far to the northeast.

Additionally, that very same "Texas" Rat in my photo has gone on to develop more yellow beige in her coloration, especially on her head as she has matured. I'm not real sure what to make out of any of it either. In my opinion, with the exception of the ones well to the east of Texas/Oklahoma, etc.. there probably isn't a whole lot of difference in them anyway. Again, this is all debatable, and has been re-hashed many times by many people.

Oh well,...I guess I'm done babbling about it..LOL!

Anyhow, enjoy the nice white snakes you will be producing, whatever they may be!

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

....I was there when they first popped into the MARS show...
...Larry......yea...they were black leucies....cough...not....

.....rats a rat...breed away....

yellows and glades....tex and blacks...they cross all over the place.....hey...people even bred the bamboos together now....LOL....

....all cool...all good stuff....have fun...!
-----
JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for the info. Like I said.. I'm just starting with North American snake breeding for the most part. I began my learning curve with difficult tropicals.. so I'm doing things backwards really.. but its been a fun 13 years so far and I doubt I'll be stopping anytime soon!
-----
Mel Goodrich
RavenCrest Reptiles
drune@charter.net

1.2 Leucistic ratsnakes
2.3 Kenyan Sand boas
1.1 BCI
3.3 Corns (varied morphs)
1.1 Namibian Housesnakes
1.1 Black Housesnakes
1.0 Malagasy Speckled Hognose (Looking for breeding/loan female)
0.1 Malagasy Giant Hognose (looking for Male on loan for breeding..Pick of clutches for either as payment)