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Of my first Honduran clutch 3 of 6 hatched ... and the third surprised me. The last egg of the season hatched out Hypo. I purchased the pair as normals, the male locally from craigslist and ordered the female from the other side of the country 6 months later. What a way to hook a guy into Honduran Milk Snakes

Like it or not, I think you are now hooked on hondurans.

Congrats on that hypo, given that you thought both parents were het for nothing. Obviously, both normal "wild-type" looking parents are instead both het for hypo to be able to produce even one hypo in the clutch.

What fun, what fun!!!

Ray

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

I think your breeding points out exactly how inbred Hondurans really are. It is important for the hobby to have access to "het for nothing" animals, there may well be a need to backcross them to seperate out morphs and the only way to have predictable results are with "het for nothings". I dont expect my point to be popular, but some people appreciate the natural form as well as the morphs.

Good point. There are some stunning "breeds" but I'll take a natural over hypo any day. I do have a couple Stillwaters and a Lucy Pine though. Whatever you're into is cool but I really agree that pure native lines are vital. Not sure if/how it would ever work but too bad there's no formalized pedigree system in the hobby.

Excellent point, Jeff!. A het for nothing Honduran is all but virtually extict nowadays, with just a few exceptions. It's similar to trying to find a "normal" cornsnake that isn't carrying any recessive traits at all. The HUGE difference is, at least with this comparison, is almost ANYONE can walk outside and capture a wild-caught corn to introduce for out-crossing if he/she wants to. Whereas this certainly cannot be done with "hondurensis"..LOL!. Heck, there are only a tiny number of "known" locality true hondurensis in the country.

Not long ago('07), I acquired a pair of normal, het for nothing floridana hatchlings ONLY because of the fact they were supposed to be just plain ol' "old school" nice yellow brooksi het for NOTHING that originated from southern Miami/Dade county. These are the true floridana rarities in my opinion, and certainly will be in the future, just like many other types of snakes will be..LOL!

Don't get me wrong, certain morphs are cool too, and I also breed some too, but as you mentioned, it is ALSO extremely important to have the integrity of normal wild-types remain in the hobby as well,...and of ALL types of snakes for that matter. This is exactly why intentional intergradation and hybridization bends me out'a shape so darn much!, but that is a whole other incredibly long, ugly story..LOL!

BTW, I'm sure you'll agree those are nice looking "kids" the other poster produced, and I don't want to seem like I'm bashing on all morphs by any means, I just think normal genuine stuff is important to stay around in the hobby as well.

later, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

exactly, I was slightly alarmed. If you told me to find an unrelated 'het for nothing' pair of tangerine hondurans within the existing captive bred gene pool, this would have been about my best attempt at doing that.

But if it had to be, I'm glad it's a hypo, because I sure think they look cool, which I suppose is part of the problem.

... anyway, Ray, you're right, I think I'm hooked on these beauties.

"I sure think they look cool, which I suppose is part of the problem."

LOL!!!, you hit it right on the head!,...I'm just as guilty too!..hahaha!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

And let me begin by saying I fully understand your point and agree BUT...
Year after year people bring this point up but there's not too many breeders I'm aware of that work with nothing but "het for nothing" animals. One that comes to mind is currently getting the same money for his killer normal Hondurans garanteed to be het for nothing...the same money as you could easily get a Hypo or Anery for. Actually his normals cost more.
Hondurans and everything else could use a fresh start but using myself for an example I do not have the space to properly quarantine wild caught imports. In the case of morphs I can tell you most times people I know offer outcrossed hets for a tiny bit more than hets from the original line bred stock they just dont sell well. MANY people aske for unrelated stock... yet when it's there for whatever reason they chose against it.
What this is going to take is some people with room, and patience, to take a few years to get some new het nothing lines established and some outcrossed morphs would be cool too.
You're right though...not everyone will be looking at morphs popping out of their normals as a bonus.
Come to think of it...who has real Tangerine Dreams anymore?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

>>Come to think of it...who has real Tangerine Dreams anymore?

Hi Tom.

Ironically, it was the Loves' tangerine dream line that turned out to be the first het for hypos!

According to bill, the original animal turned out to be het and began the hypo line in the US (I think steve osborne reported a 2nd, possibly unrelated line he marketed as super hypos). The story of how the Loves got that first tangerine dream is a neat one.

I think it would be impossible to find one of their early animals that wasn't at risk of being het/hypo. I know because when i bought the first hypos they parted with I spent a long day at their place going thru their records, tracing animals, and we identified a number of their "normal" adults, that as a result of subsequent production by siblings and offspring, could be identified as hets or possible hets.

Thanks for the input
Is the story your thinking of the one with the pet shop " coral snakes"?
Please check out my post on the King forum..you should enjoy the pix
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Jeff, I couldn't agree with you more.

The problem points to why I dislike hybrids so much (ok, to be specific: I love the looks of some of them, but hate some of the unanticipated consequences of them).

For every "pure" wild type in the trade that's actually carrying some hidden morph genes, there may be "pure" wild type animals that are actually carrying hidden genes from some other species or subspecies. I saw some at expo yesterday that i could identify--or guess at the identification of--but that were simply marked as a single unpolluted genotype. There's no doubt that for every animal that looks suspect and is mis-identified, there's a larger number whose appearance is close enough to one of the parent species to avoid detection. If we think getting a hypo unexpectedly says something unfortunate about what's in circulation, imagine your feelings if you unexpectedly got a baby that looked more like another species than what you were expecting.

And that's a shame.

It's sad that we cannot keep track of our genetic lines, but it's really not at all a suprise to me with hondos, corns, kings, etc that unknown hets pop up...

Can you imagine how much money is floating around out there in "normal" Ball Pythons.

~ Mike Russo

Well this year I found out what are supposed to be well documented corns can carry hidden traits as well, a pair of unrelated Abbott Okeetees i picked up from Lee a few years back kicked out a few "hypo" babys. I've had this happen on snakes i had no info on but these ones have picks of the grandparents even so its something that floated threw several generations at least in two lines none the less.

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1.2 sunglow motley corns
1.1 anery corn
2.3 okeetee corn
1.1 blood red het blizzard
0.1 sunkissed corn
0.1 hypo A het amel corn
0.1 hybino corn
1.0 caramel corn
0.1 amber corn
1.0 golddust motley corn
0.1 butter motley corn
0.1 triple het snow motley
0.1 hypo brooks
1.2 high red het albino western hogs
1.0 anery Honduran milk snake
0.1 VP hypo Honduran milk snake
1.1 anery Kenyan sand boa
0.1 Kenyan sand boa
3.6 rats and babys
ginger mouse colony
1.1 rex rabbits and babys
24 gal saltwater nano reef