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I'm attempting to create a more naturalistic terrarium for my hybrid that contains two other montane desert snakes, so I was wondering what is the natural environment of of a Nelson's milk? I know they are central american, but what environment? Thanks for your time.

Well, I don't mean to throw a "wrench" into things here, but the first thing to address is it's NOT a great idea AT ALL to house several Lampropeltis together in the first place, no matter what kind it is, but ESPECIALLY if your hybrid contains any getula complex(common kingsnake)in it's lineage, this would be an absolute mistake. They could easily decide to dine on one another.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

It would have been better in my opinion if you were trying to create a more "natural" snake. As in keeping the snake's lineage as pure as possible.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

1. I didn't create him, I bought him like that when I first got into snakes. I'm much more of the natural opinion as my interest has increased.
2. I KNOW not to keep snakes of the getula complex with any others, way too many horror stories for me to be that stupid.
3. the snake is a HYBRID of 25% thayeri, 25% nelsoni, and 50% campbelli . I was asking so that I may attune his terrarium environment to what his wild components would prefer.
I know that thayeri live like alterna, and campbelli in the montane deserts of mexico, but:
What kind of environment do nelsoni come from? if is high altitude desert that would be perfect, but I tend to think not, because my hybrid tends to prefer higher humidity than not...
Please read a bit closer next time, I'll try to be a bit cleared in my wording. Thanks for replying though.

"Please read a bit closer next time"

Yes, I will certainly try to do that. So to answer your question honestly, the freezer is really the ideal environment for those.

I don't think it would really matter what the habitat for nelsoni is in this particular case, unless you actually had one. Please don't get me wrong here,..I don't hate the snake itself, I hate the fact that someone thought it would be a bright idea to produce the snake.

In any case, nelsoni are found in areas that look similar to this photo. They inhabit areas of Guanajuato, west through Jalisco, and southward to the coastal areas of Colima. They are also found on the islands of Tres Marias in similar habitat.

You must keep in mind, this would be like me going over to the zonata(mountain king) forum and asking them what is the typical wild environment that multicincta inhabits, then tell them I want to know this because I have a zonata x corn x florida king that I want to house naturally. I wouldn't expect those guys to be real understanding about it either, and believe me, they wouldn't.

The hybrid forum is better for this type of stuff. But then again, most of them don't know diddly squat about the natural history of most snakes, or they probably wouldn't be over there in the first place.

Again, here is a photo of the type of natural habitat that nelsoni ranges in.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thank you for an honest answer, and I am fully aware of many people's opinions of hybrids on these forums, but I can only afford so many snakes, and he happens to be the first one I got, with the "oh that looks cool" mentality before I really got into snakes past their novelty. I just want to state my position on these things since now the cat seems to be out of the box. I certainly never plan on making any hybrids, but some of them are pretty, in the artistic sense that many keepers that love snakes for the pure fact of them being snakey don't seem to care for. Honestly I have much changed my opinions since I first got him, but he's my first snake, so I refuse not to love him.
The reason the I state the first post so cryptically was because I was ATTEMPTING TO AVOID ANIMOSITY, but as you have already stated, the hybrid forum is hardly the place to get good information.
I have to say, after all the just wonderful reception to my newbie post I really feel welcome in the snake hobby.
P.S. I also a have a NATURAL alterna, and I plan on picking up a pair of annulata as soon as I can afford them.

I am really glad to hear what you said. And I can fully understand where you are coming from on this whole thing. I don't enjoy being abrasive with folks either, and I am rather happy it didn't escelate too far. I guess I have certain views that I have difficulty ignoring many times, as most of us do from time to time..LOL!

Anyway, there are a large number of folks that during the course of their snake keeping, start changing their views as their knowledge and experiences with certain snakes progresses over time. Again, I'm really glad you posted back with a civil reply, and it's really good to hear this sort of thing now and then. This turned out much better than I was expecting it to..LOL!

Enjoy those other snakes you mentioned you were going to acquire, you are sure to like them!

take care!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I personally think that civility is something that is often lacking on the king/milk forums, glad to be a propagator of a new trend (hopefully ^-^).
Thank you for prompt responses and understanding!
I certainly wish I could pick up those milks in Daytona this weekend...

Without getting into the whole hybrid debate, I would like to say this:

Doug, I usually agree with you, but I have to disagree on the freezer thing. Whether the hybrid should have been created in the first place is one issue, but that's not the issue here. The snake in this situation already exists and is alive and is obviously cared for by someone. There's no reason to kill it.
I understand the point that it could muddy the gene pool, but that's only if the owner chooses to breed it and dispose of the babies irresponsibly. But to say that a snake should be frozen because it's a hybrid...aren't we forgetting about our love for snakes in general?
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Yeah, I definitely agree with you about it not being the snake's fault, and shouldn't necessarily have to pay the price for being created. That's why I was glad to here it wasn't going to be bred and perpetuated in the future. I don't like the idea of any animal not getting a "fair shake" at having a good healthy life either once the are created.

Aside from what they can potentially do to captive gene pools in collections, that is yet another reason in my opinion for not creating them in the first place. I think we are both pretty much on the same page on that part.

I don't expect to change the whole world's views on this, I just thought I would interject a few very brief ideas on the subject since the opportunity was there. Many times I don't really bother with it, as they more often than not just turn into typical "mud-slings", but I was glad to get back the response I did instead of the all too common typical belligerent response that many seem to have. Many people just aren't able grasp some of the legitimate reasons some of us have on this subject, and I was glad to see we understood each other.

anyhooo, take care my friend!

~Doug

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>... I certainly never plan on making any hybrids, but some of them are pretty, in the artistic sense that many keepers that love snakes for the pure fact of them being snakey don't seem to care for. Honestly I have much changed my opinions since I first got him, but he's my first snake, so I refuse not to love him.
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some of us have been guilty of the same questionable choices when we first started: One of the first snakes i produced was a "jungle corn" (corn x king cross). But as i began reading more about the natural history of each of those species, and saw animals being sold as one or the other species that were actually hybrids, the more i realized how much harm animals like that can do to herpetoculture, and the more i began to value and appreciate "pure" animals--genotypes found in nature.

It's a learning process. It sounds like you're expanding--have already expanded--your understanding. One suggestion: if you ever find a new home for your hybrid, try to make it one with an owner who only wants a pet, and not an animal for breeding.

peace!

Terry,

That was very well put, and are my very same thoughts too.

BTW, It was really nice to have the opportunity to chat with you before you had to leave the show today!. I had a great time, and will also be back there again tomorrow for a while.

Didn't need any more animals, but I walked out with some great herp "accessories"..LOL!!,........sleaves of deli cups, and Brian Hubbs' excellent getula book. This is by FAR the most complete, detailed, and data stuffed book on the getula complex available ANYWHERE on the planet!. It was truly a "must-have".

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

It was good meeting you too, now i can put a face to the name on these forums.

I agree about Brian's book. Anyone with any interest in kings should read it. His tales of hunting resonate with every herper--if you haven't done it, you wish you had. And it's packed with knowledge. I think the book represents the perfect match of the right person with the right subject.

You have always spoke your mind w/ honesty and helpfulness, and you stick your finger in someones ribs once in a while to get them to pay attention.

It sure is good to have you back on the forums again.

-Dell

Thanks, Dell!

HEY!,...is that what I think it is!..hahaha!!

I see you scored!...way to go buddy! , Hope yours are doing well, mine are too. I'm glad to see that panned-out for ya.

Oh,...yeah, it's good to be back..hahaha!!

take care!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug gave you a picture and the range.

Here is some addt'l info..

These snakes live in habitat which ranges from coastal lowlands to an elevated plateau area, even into semi-arid areas. The one thing that is common is the presence of moisture. In the more semi-arid areas they follow waterways and agricultural drainages.

In general, the best way to make the snake most comfortable may be a soil-like substrate (like coconut fiber mixed with a little sand) and an undertank heater. Mist the substrate as needed when the ambient humidity is low. And provide flat hides (like cork slabs). Nelsoni (and milks in general) tend to like hides they can feel on their backs, or at least very low-height hides that hug the ground and provide a moisture seal.

Plants aren't necessary. In the wild the snakes probably use plant debri to hide in and tree root systems to hide among. Really, in the wild the plants provide food for rodents and bugs (which feed the lizards) to sustain the snakes. In captivity, you just don't need the plants to provide. The snake doesn't care as long as food is available. A snake will hole up in a tin can if it learns that food frequents there.

When a nelsoni has the right amount of hydration, the skin is nice and soft and the snake's color is vibrant. When a snake is more dehydrated, the color is often more drab and the skin feels thicker.

I would say that nelsoni are more moisture-loss-sensitive than graybands. A nelsoni can live in a semi-arid terrarium if you provide some localized humidity and tight hides. You may want to cover the screen top either partially or mostly depending on the ambient humidity.

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Mark

Yes, a more lowland habitat that provides substantial humidity is good accurate advice as well. Tight hides are a must too as you mentioned.

BTW,...nice nelsoni!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Soil type substrate huh? No kidding. I first (when novice) put him on calci-sand but he was dusty all the time and shed bad once (which was enough for me to switch him), but then put bad-a-beast (coco-fiber) on top of the sand so that it eventually mixed. I thought I should get rid of the sand, but didn't want to because the bed-a-beast is really light when not wet and the sand held it down well(and I didn't want to rot his belly by keeping that stuff wet all the time). Petsmart stopped carrying bed-a-beast so I tried rocks. NO GOOD. Snake is stressed and some more bed-a-beast is on it's way from the internet, I'll grab some more sand this weekend!
Thanks for the additional info!