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Had a bad run of mold on the eggs and lost most of them this year, but I was lucky in quality if not quantity.

Lance

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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Those are nice, Lance!
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Todd Hughes

>>Had a bad run of mold on the eggs and lost most of them this year, but I was lucky in quality if not quantity.
>>

Wow Lance....That granite is NICE! Looks like a keeper to me....LOL
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Notice the nice mold covered eggs... it took a toll on them.

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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

that Melanistic is AWESOME Lance....It is strange that the normal looking offspring isn't dark at all....Not even an 'inbetweener' at all....
Anymore hatch besides those two?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

One more egg looks good in there, and my black x black breeding has 6 more eggs, but they are weeks away from due.

I am a real fungus hater now though... I tell you what!

I will share pics as they go...
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Cool...Lance I like forward to seeing some more hatch out over there.....I have owned hundreds of thayeri but not once have I seen a pure melanistic thayeri....
I just saw some Amel Melanistic thayeri and some Melanistics from the same clutch at the Daytona show....HYBRIDS though.....
The tiny melanistics had no pattern at all at such a young age....Nothing like true melanistic thayeri.....

Keep the pics coming as they hatch...Thanks for sharing....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

The tiny melanistics had no pattern at all at such a young age....Nothing like true melanistic thayeri.....

I would really like to know what is cooked into the hybrids to make them look melanistic, people have said Mexican Black Kings, but they in a sense are just melanistic desert kings and show some hint of that pattern as juveniles, or the "best ones" that are more jet black still tend to have light freckles on the chin and along the belly, at least as hatchlings. Plus they are huge compared to thayeri, even as babies. And from what I have seen of our MBKs, they would most likely eat any thayeri you tried to couple them with... just not that picky about food, in fact they have made good effort on both fingers and toes that I have seen first hand and foot. I have to wonder if the hybrids you saw with the amel clutch mates really had some measure of black thayeri up the line, and then maybe some ruthveni or nelsoni to get the amel gene. But then again I did not see them and a blind guess is not worth much. And like you I would worry about a black thayeri that hatched out patternless, but that would just be suspect and not a full on "tell", I expect to see some hint of pattern when they hatch and then to have them darken as they mature.

I wish it was all easier... everything is clear as mud these days.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>I would really like to know what is cooked into the hybrids to make them look melanistic, people have said Mexican Black Kings, but they in a sense are just melanistic desert kings and show some hint of that pattern as juveniles, or the "best ones" that are more jet black still tend to have light freckles on the chin and along the belly, at least as hatchlings.

Lance...I agree with you 200%....lol
Coincidentally I have been having this same conversation / argument with a few Mexicana enthusiasts lately....

The ones I saw DEFINITELY had Melanistic Thayeri in them for the Melanism....I was referring to the hybridization of the Amel gene from Ruthveni....
Also I am one who thinks that there was no such thing as a hybrid black thayeri because there is no way to make the cross without residual Splendida pattern.....It would take lots of generations to outcross that 'look'.....WHY BOTHER?
Now there ARE Hybrid Melanistic thayeri due to hybridizers wanting to produce solid white amelanistic thayeri ....Amel mels....Blizzards in other kingsnakes.....
But this cross is from Ruthveni for the amel gene...

It upsets me....nothing is sacred anymore.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

This is why it is so hard to get "Gun Ho" about Mexicana these days. Lance has peaked my interest with Granite mex's and ultra light Thayeri. The bottom line... unless you "know" someone who has f1 mexicana from permits or zoos, you dont know what you have. I can tell you right now I wouldnt pay a dime for albinos or hypos or any of that crap unless someone can show proof positive that it is 100 percent, full blooded, mexicana.

The problem is that breeders and sellers see the dollar signs that Ball Pythons make and convince themselves that "if I can produce something that nobody else has I can sell it and make a name for myself". Riciculous... I think greed has ruined this hobby. The snakes pay the ultimate price of course.. .mixing this with that...

SXO792

It is a select few breeders out that the believe you can "import" a gene or trait into a species and have it not be a hybrid somehow down the line. But to me once you have a hybrid line you will never purify it back no matter how many generations are involved.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I'm not sure about this statement. I do not know anyone who truly thinks they can "capture" a gene and then breed it PURE again by inbreeding.

Now, I have no doubt that there are some unscrupulous folks out there who would deliberately mislead for the sake of selling their snakes.

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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

I'm not sure about this statement. I do not know anyone who truly thinks they can "capture" a gene and then breed it PURE again by inbreeding.

What is uncertian about the fact that if you take an animal that is 50% thayeri and 50% something else. Now breed it with a thayeri and that makes for 75% thayeri and 25% something else, next time it is 87.5% thayeri and 12.5% something else. Now just by the math you close the number with each generation, but you never at any time will reach 100% thayeri and 0% something else.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I apologize for the confusion. After rereading it, I can see how it was misconstrued.

I was unsure about the statement that you made concerning people thinking they can purify a line as that is clearly not possible.
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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

>>Now, I have no doubt that there are some unscrupulous folks out there who would deliberately mislead for the sake of selling their snakes.

True....SO very true Chris.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I am still "Gung Ho" about Mexicana because I know where mine come from....No F1s but from reputable founding breeders that would not cross subspecies for a dollar.
I have Thayeri from Louis Torres, Lee Abbott, Dan Vermilya and Tim Gebhart that I would never cross into anything else....
I TRUST these guys...
We certainly cannot play the locale game with Mexicana....AGREED?
Too bad you are jaded....I think (& many others do too) that there are still some trustworthy people in our trade.
But until we can go flip a rock in Mexico and collect our own we cannot do as the Alterna, Zonata and Pyro guys......
I know some Alterna keepers that work with locale specific snakes that have never been to West Texas....They purchased these snakes from reputable breeders that are trustworthy and they can get these snakes to reproduce and sell them as pure.

So...
Some of us Mexicana breeders frown upon hybrids and work with the "purist" form there is available in the trade at this point in time.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

He took one look at that granite Mex-mex produced this year and told me how irritated he was to be hooked into Mexicana now.

Then that dark little thayeri popped out and set another hook.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>He took one look at that granite Mex-mex produced this year and told me how irritated he was to be hooked into Mexicana now.
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>>Then that dark little thayeri popped out and set another hook.
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I know how he feels....
Rebuilding a collection is fun and hard at times....but....
All the Mex Mex looks out there have sent me on some sort of BINGE to acquire every different look I can see...
Kinda like I used to be with Thayeri....LOL

Mike Murphy gave me some insight....
He told me it was nice to be excited about snakes again and not be jaded with the hobby...
And he is right...I have a ton of projects that may take 4 generations or more to refine.....I hope I live that long....LOL
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>>>I would really like to know what is cooked into the hybrids to make them look melanistic, people have said Mexican Black Kings, but they in a sense are just melanistic desert kings and show some hint of that pattern as juveniles, or the "best ones" that are more jet black still tend to have light freckles on the chin and along the belly, at least as hatchlings.
>>
>>Lance...I agree with you 200%....lol
>>Coincidentally I have been having this same conversation / argument with a few Mexicana enthusiasts lately....
>>
>>The ones I saw DEFINITELY had Melanistic Thayeri in them for the Melanism....I was referring to the hybridization of the Amel gene from Ruthveni....
>>Also I am one who thinks that there was no such thing as a hybrid black thayeri because there is no way to make the cross without residual Splendida pattern.....It would take lots of generations to outcross that 'look'.....WHY BOTHER?
>>Now there ARE Hybrid Melanistic thayeri due to hybridizers wanting to produce solid white amelanistic thayeri ....Amel mels....Blizzards in other kingsnakes.....
>>But this cross is from Ruthveni for the amel gene...
>>
>>It upsets me....nothing is sacred anymore.
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>>John Lassiter
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>>"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I would love to hear some other insights and musings on this subject. There is such an air of distrust for the melanistic thayeri now because of the hybrids that have leaked into the breeding colonies of breeders wanting to work with "pure" (whatever that is any more) thayeri.

It looks like you and I agree that the hybrids were not made in an effort to make black thayeri, but instead to make color or pattern morphs. It just so happens that some black thayeri could have been used upstream for one reason or another. But in that case they are no more suspect of being a hybrid than anything else waving a thayeri flag these days.

Get those enthusiest to chime in with anything they have or know, in fact I would love to see some known hybrid pictures of a thayeri to MBK (or any other common king), 50/50 first generation, 75/25 second generation and so on. It would take a good 8-9 years to get more down the line than that and with the effort and time invested you could have a boat load of just plain on melanistic thayeri by then.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Get those enthusiest to chime in with anything they have or know, in fact I would love to see some known hybrid pictures of a thayeri to MBK (or any other common king), 50/50 first generation, 75/25 second generation and so on. It would take a good 8-9 years to get more down the line than that and with the effort and time invested you could have a boat load of just plain on melanistic thayeri by then.

I have yet to see any such pictures of those crosses.....Another reason to believe Getula is NOT in the mix....
I think the hypermelanism trait in melanistic thayeri come from thayeri....
The only hybrids / crosses that could be desirable (by hybridizers) would be crossing a hypo or amel gene into the mix. And using Amel Ruthveni and/or Hypo Greeri would be much easier to outcross than anything else...IMHO
I heard one time....Years back that if you cross two subspecies and breed an offspring back to one of the parents then line breed for 9 generations there will be no differences in mtDNA....
And I agree...WHY BOTHER doing this with melanistic thayeri.... If you find some from a reputable breeder...buy them...and don't waste all that time trying to 'make' some....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

"there was no such thing as a hybrid black thayeri because there is no way to make the cross without residual Splendida pattern"

How did you make this determination? Have you seen this particular cross or bred them yourself?
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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

>>"there was no such thing as a hybrid black thayeri because there is no way to make the cross without residual Splendida pattern"
>>
>>How did you make this determination? Have you seen this particular cross or bred them yourself?

I haven't seen any Black Thayeri with residual Splendida pattern.
Also I have never hybridized any Mexicana.

That quote you chose had more text that you did not choose....
That used to be my belief (notice the use of the word "was"....Now I am uncertain of many Black Thayeri. With all the hybridizers out there nothing is sacred anymore.....

I should ask you as well....
Have you made THAT cross?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

No, I haven't tried that.
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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

I haven't tried and I am not certain that the babies will all look like a mix between the two snakes at hatch.

The way you had spoken made it sould like you were certain and that is the reason for my question....

After reading your reply, it seems you took offense at the statement. Sometimes I forget that you guys think it's blaspheming the Holy Ghost to breed differing sp or ssp together

Honestly, I did not mean any offense so please don't take any and thank you for your reply.
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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

No offense taken....sorry it read that way
That's what I hate about reading or writing typed text....
It is hard to tell what mood or emotion is trying to be conveyed.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

"there was no such thing as a hybrid black thayeri because there is no way to make the cross without residual Splendida pattern"

How did you make this determination? Have you seen this particular cross or bred them yourself?

I think the point is that so far nobody has seen it that he knows of, not saying it could never happen, but any mix of mexicana and getula??? who has done it, are there pictures or examples of those hybrid offspring? Was this done in a top secret lab in Nevada or something? People have ideas about "making" black thayeri, but nobody I know of has anything you can touch or photograph?

So let me ask, have you seen them yourself or even pictures of them? If I could not see a picture I would at least like to hear a first hand description of the look.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

The trio of Thayeri breeders, the little black female has 6 good eggs due to hatch this fall or so from her late breeding, better late than never... The bigger more typical female has one more good looking egg wrapped up in a bunch of slugs from her second breeding.

The babies and the 6 good eggs from the black female.

And the Mex-mex came from this lovely pair

of course producing these two animals after much egg loss to mold

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world