Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I had a very healthy Albino Arab male from 2005. I've had him over a year now and he's been just fine. Not one single issue.

I fed all my boas Saturday. He ate a large f/t rat. On Monday I saw that he had regurgitated the rat. While he hasn't done this before, some boas from time to time have. Not alarming to me. I just figured I'd wait 2 weeks before feeding him again.

Last night I came into the snake room and he was belly up dead. I'm heartbroken!

Any ideas what it could've been?

Have a necropsy done. It's the only way to be 100% sure as to "what happened".

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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

i have heard of this quite often with arabesqes for some strange reason. its been awhile since ive heard of the last incident though i dont work with them anymore but did a few years back and i did have some regurge issues and i was told by other arab breeders to feed small items because they were known to just kick the bucket some times.

When I got my first arab. he regurged repeatedly. However, he didn't die a day later. He eventually came around, it did take feeding very small prey compared to his size, but he was a baby. The only regurg issues I've heard of with arabs. has been as babies.

For starters, I've had Arabesques for over three years and have never had an issue with regurging. The only thing I've noticed with any of mine is, both the 06 Albino Arabesque male & 06 Hypo Arabesque het Albino male have refused meals from time to time. No big deal at all!

I actually think the Arabesques make excellent breeders and pets. I've had great success with both keeping and producing them.

Like some of your other replies suggest, I'd have a necropsy done. That would give you a definite answer and piece of mind! I wouldn't wait though, animals to be submitted for a necropsy should be done fairly quick. I'd put the animal in a zip lock baggy, then refrigerate it, then find a qualified vet to have a necropsy done.

Another thought, do you feed your animals on top of that substrate pictured in your post? That stuff would be questionable to me... I stick with plain old news paper, never had an issue! Other than the animals, sometimes get newspaper ink smudged all over their heads! I've been told by my Vet,that's harmless!

Good luck and let us know what the cause of death was!

Sorry about your loss,

Chaz

The substrate I used is paper-based. Odorless and free of chemicals.

But, besides that. I Do Not feed them on that substrate. I remove them from their cages and feed them in large plastic bins on newspaper.

I get my feeders from one of the f/t dealers on this site. Never had an issue...

Such a shame. So many possibilities. I've had my heart broken as well. I treat everything like it is toxic waste now and will continue till I have bloodwork done all my boids.
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4.4 BCI
1.3 BCC
2.1 Eastern Indigo
1.3 Western Hognose (Het Albino)
2.2 Ball Python (Het Pied/Spider/Pastel)
1.1 Chondro (Mixer/Sorong)
1.1 Retic (Possible Het Calico)
1.3.6 Crested Gecko
0.1 California Kingsnake (Striped)
0.0.1 Florida Softshell Turtle
0.0.1 African Long Neck Turtle
1.0 Pitbull
0.1 Bull Terrier
1.2 Kids
0.1 Ball and Chain

Regurge has been discussed before here. Not Arab specific, though.
What I've learned is that Boas do not digest fat well. Hooded Rats and Zucker Rats are to be avoided, as Zucker Rats are very fatty and look so much like Hooded Rats as to be indistinguishable at times. It's safe to say avoid rats that have a very rotund appearance.
Personally, my experience has been that 1) feeding too large a meal and 2) maintaining at too high a temperature after a meal does cause regurgitation in Boas.
My only suggestion is that dehydration after regurgitation may be responsible for death following regurgitation. It is very important to keep a regurging boa very well hydrated. Just my thoughts.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

If the animal regurges and dies within 24 hours, there's not even time to "treat" an animal that just regurged. The zucker rats are also supposed to affect boas, my animals with the same result were pythons. The boa actually lived, but it was in sorry shape after regurging that rat. The one white lip was laying next to a full bowl of water when he looked like he was extremely dehydrated. And temps. could play a roll in regurgitation definitely, but when you're addressing an animal kept in the same set up for a long period of time, surrounded by other animals in the same set up(rack system, not same cage). It's a little suspicious when all of a sudden something that has never had an issue, pukes and dies. What I'm saying in a nutshell is I don't think husbandry had anything to do with it.

I recently lost one of my personal pythons to the same situation. The COD after necropsy could only be determined as a minor bacterial infection located in the stomach lining. We did full necropsy and I had samples sent out to look further into the issue. The bacteria present is often found in unclean feeder rodents.

My vet suggested checking the food source and watching where I am feeding stuff from. Occasionally I have used smaller cheaper suppliers rather than the bigger more specialized companies.

I now use a larger name feeder supplier exclusively as this seems to be the only possible cause.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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The deaths I had, and others that I've talked to were from a large specialized dealer. So, to say it's smaller operations could hurt some of the really good small time people that have top quality feeders. Did your vet expand on the dirty/unclean part. I mean, is it caused from the feces, urine, bedding, lice or anything more specific than just "dirty"?

I had a rather lengthy message typed with specifics that I was going to post, but I decided to message you directly with it.

Instead, I'd just like to second what Paul said.

Thanks for your time,
jb
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Jonathan Brady

Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

>>The deaths I had, and others that I've talked to were from a large specialized dealer. So, to say it's smaller operations could hurt some of the really good small time people that have top quality feeders. Did your vet expand on the dirty/unclean part. I mean, is it caused from the feces, urine, bedding, lice or anything more specific than just "dirty"?

Not really. I did buy what basically were cheaper feeders that had some coat staining, but where in otherwise good condition with no odor and appearing to be of healthy weight when frozen.

These are the two bacteria that showed up in the growth.

Sphinomonas Paucimobils
Klebesiella Pneumoniae

I had these present in another personal snake, a blood python, a few months prior and he did exhibit signs that had me do a tracheal flush with a bacterial culture. These two and a third item came up. In searching for results I did learn that these possibly were caused by poor quality feeders. I did make the switch to a different company.

I have since treated my entire collection with flagyl as a precaution and will be re-visiting a tracheal flush in a few months, just to see if anything comes up.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Something may be relevant here. I'm feeding right now. I thaw my rodents in a 5 gallon bucket of warm (approx. 120F) water. Initially they all float - 1) because they are frozen and therefore full of ice crystals and 2) because they have air trapped within the fur of their coat.
After they thaw a bit and are stirred some, they all sink, except those that -- 1) have a gut full of gas from a gas forming flora existent when they were euthanized and/or 2) they have been dead for some time before freezing and gas has begun to form in their gut from decomposition and purification. That is the primary reason boas puke. The food item putrefies faster than it is digested.
It's not unreasonable to suspect some rodent breeders do find dead rodents in their colony from time to time and rather than throw them away, they just freeze them and sell them just like the rest. It is also possible such rodents have died from some pathogen/illness.
That's just one more good reason to quick thaw by soaking food rodents. I never feed the floaters to expensive or problematic snakes.
Thawing at room temperature over hours of time just exacerbates any problem that may exist.
Snakes are much more responsive to a rodent at 100F (soaked temp) than they are to one at 80F (room temp).
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Great points!