Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all... I have seen a few aberrant MSP Thayer's in the past year or so, and I was wondering what (if any) differences there are between the Abby MSP Thayer's and the Striped Ruthven's? Is the only difference a solid lineage? They just look so similar to me, but the only Striped Ruthven's I have seen have had whitish/greyish bands verses orange or yellowish.

I have collected a few pictures of what I am talking about. From what I understand, these are pure Thayer's. Please forgive me for stealing your pics if these belong to you! It is just the best way for me to explain what I mean.

Thanks!!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Aubrey,
I starting seeing those striped thayeri just a few years back and thought for sure back then that they were crossed with the striped Ruthveni (Amealco) because of head pattern and similar striping occuring. And the Striped Ruthveni was popular and the only Striped Mexicana at that time.....
The grey/white bands of a Ruthveni could be easily bred out of them by outcrossing them back to Thayeri....

Now....I really don't know if there's Ruthveni in them anymore due to the amount of line breeding we are doing nowadays.
Aberrant Leonis Thayeri are getting more common. So aberrant MSPs must occur as well, right? It would be fun to have a pair to breed just to see how the genes work.

The only flack one would get is when they go to sell the offspring and label them as pure thayeri....Then all the usual questions will arise concerning lineage/provenance/bloodlines, etc.....

I think one could easily just call them designer mexicana and sell them and at the same time enjoy working with a project that is enjoyable.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Thanks for your thoughts, John. You say that the head pattern on the ones you saw were very similar to Ruthven's? Not sure if things have changed over the years but just about every single Abby Ruthven's I have seen has had a mostly black head, while just about all the Abby MSP Thayer's I have seen have had red on the head.

This male pictured below I know to have a solid genetic background and was produced by Mike Bodner:

Another thing I have noticed is that the red on the Ruthven's "stripe" is pretty solid, while some of the Abby MSP Thayer's have a faint to sometimes a little bolder line down the top. If you look at the above picture you can make out a faint line to see what I mean.

Makes me scratch my head...
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I did notice that all of those lacked the black Ruthie heads....But...with some work that, too can be outcrossed.....as I stated earlier there is certainly a possibility they are pure thayeri, since there are so many aberrant leonis thayeri hatching...Why not MSPs...And I just remembered Mike Bodner's when I read your post...I forgot you had it....He had another MSP with some white circle nuchals...first couple bands joining....

That light stripe is a nuchal remnant that is a Thayeri trait (as well as mexmex & greeri) not Ruthveni...It is the ground color usually...But with aberrancies anything is possible when certain alleles align on the DNA sequence....
And the red on thayeri is usually more bright than that of Ruthveni....Ruthies usually have a muted but bold red, especially the females...Females speckle more too...There is some dimorphism happening there.

I used to have some of Justin Mitcham's striped ruthveni...The red pigment in the striping was broken by some ground color saturation.....

I think this is a great topic for this forum.....I wonder why more aren't chiming in since alot of folks on here know (or claim to know) their Mexicana pretty well....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Ok, right, I remember seeing that ground color striping on mex mex necks too... but the colors look so different than mex mex... who knows.

The striped neck that Mike Bodner produced actually went to Craig Hummel (that is his picture), but I did get it from him recently. I also have the circle back MSP that Mike produced. Here is an old pic of him:

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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

dont you have that MSP from Mike Bodner with the circles on its neck/back? I would consider that one of the cooler abberant MSP out there, and since its from Mike, you know its good!

Adam

some i have and some i have had

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POSITIVE THOUGHTS, POSITIVE RESULTS

Yup, the circle back male is mine. Here is an old pic of him:

I should get an updated pic of him taken before winter hits.

Nice MSPs by the way!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

The above animal (circle back). I thought they looked like wrist watches. But I'm weird. Came from pure Vivid Reptiles lines by Tim Gephart. The parents were My Vivid Yellow Leonis # 11M bred to #12F (female animal that was produced here). 12F's parents were a f2 from wild caught parent bred to old Orange Cheek. These were both from Vivid also. So pure Vivid line .........Mike Bod

I should have kept that critter. Must have had a brain freeze. Lol. I am keeping all my best animals this year for a change. mike

LOL, well at least you know where he went and can have an update anytime you want. He won't be leaving my collection any time soon!

BTW, thanks for the detailed lineage! I'll have to check my records to see if I have all that down. I know I have some of it at least.
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Yeah that is the guy, he is so cool looking, and Mike, i totally see the wrist watches, so maybe you arent so weird! But yeah i really like that guy i remember seeing the hatchling photos on him, and like i said, if its from Mike you know its good.
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POSITIVE THOUGHTS, POSITIVE RESULTS

Yeah, definetley look like wristwatches... I rememeber Mike had him advertised as a wristwach snake when I bought him. I just love that snake.... just have to figure out which lucky girl (or girls) get to be his first encounter.

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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

love the marks above the eyes too, very cool all around
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POSITIVE THOUGHTS, POSITIVE RESULTS