Reptile & Amphibian Forums

These may as well be a morph. The difference from baby to adult is just too cool. I wish I could have got more pics of this adult male but he just shed and he is hungry! By the time I finished taking these pics he was biting everything including himself. That's my kinda Kingsnake!






Since I missed Daytona I had to get something to cheer me up so I got a few of these


Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

You? hognose? never pictured you keeping these. I know how it's feel to miss a show. That breeder is really nice! thanks for sharing your adults lately.

I dont understand? Why dont you think I'd be interested in Hognose? I have Kings, Milks, Corns, Gophers. Bulls and Pines... not many more colubrids for me to be interested in other than ones that probably won't do well under the conditions I can provide for them here in Texas.,..., like Asian Rats for example.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

You know it is weird you posted the PB hets. Last night I took the time and held a lot of my adult triple hets. I was thinking I should post some pics of them because knowbody knows how nice they turn out. They have peanut Butter in them plus axanthic and hypo.

I never outcrossed the hypos and axanthics. So the hets look real cool. Real brooksi from locality stock.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, while I respect your record keeping, "marketing" them as any kind of "locality" after have selectively inbred 3,4,5 or more generations....I suggest "locality", as most of us define it, has lost its relavence. If you call em "Brooksi", thats as close anyone should ask. What you are saying is "Brooksi" is locale right? Isnt "locality Brooksi" redundant???

No it is not reduntant because most people call ALL Florida kings "brooksi" . To those selling it is a marketing term and nothing else. True Brooksi are from south Florida. Maybe only you and a few others here already know the difference. But most people i talk to don't.
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www.Bluerosy.com

To say they are "locality" though definately implies locale. I sincerely doubt there is much difference between any "locality" in the "brooksi" range, I think you will agree. Every horse is a mammal but not every mammal is a horse....its like that. You cant have it both ways there Rainer! Who would have thunk anyone trying to PROVE OUT LOCALITY in any Florida kings 10 years ago!! LMAO!!

I'm not sure we are on the same page.

Brooks kings or "brooksi" were historically found around Homestead and Florida city, along the canals built for irregation and flood control.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Brooks kings" are a marketing term for the defunct "brooksi" ssp. right? Brooksi is bascially a locale Florida king, right? I had several conversations in the last few years on the milk forum debating as to "when is locale lost". Most would agree beyond F2 locale(then or now)is almost worthless. To dredge up locale at F4,F5,F6 I dont really see the point. These snakes look absolutely nothing like any of the founder stock. Locality breeding was started before "pics" and the internet, it was primarily to duplicate prototypical wc animals to that area. I think you run the risk of degrading locality animals by marketing morphs and multimorphs as locality. By the way, it may be a GOOD IDEA to actually breed some new blood into "brooks king" lines for this very reason. Without new blood....you have simply a domesticated animal.

In the habitat you have rich black muckland fields and canals cut through with banks of very white, light limestone. Over many years natural selection has created a Brooks king that has refined itself to survive along the limestone banks by becoming lighter and brighter. That was done by the snakes. The Brooks from surrounding agricultural fields or hammocks remained darker. I think that’s where the “Brooks canal” term came from. These were the particularly lighter ones found along the canals. This color variation occurs throughout all Florida kings and could be (and has been) selectively bred from any of them. So they pop up all the time in different locals by chance. Down in extreme south Florida, there are more areas where the muck is not as thick or gives way to the ancient coral bed and the kings are far more frequently naturally lighter. I personally believe this type used to occur along every sandy beach around the entire coast, and because of development, is basically extinct.

that, as much as we all LOVED those authentic "Brook's Canal" snakes back in the 70s and 80s, that no one that I've been able to locate has kept up with breeding that line as pure, non-mutant, wild-type (both in coloration and conformation) animals. I mean, there were still a bunch of breeders working with them as late as the 90s! WTF?

Now they tell me "brook's Canal" is no more, thanks to Everglades restoration. Depressing.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

The most overly collected canals in South Dade were the ones just outside the entrance to Everglades National Park specifically that were easy to drive up to, get out of your car and walk. It is quite possible that every Brooks in captivity today is descended from the most coveted Brooks canal local. Including every hypo. What is it you are looking for? It’s like the Brooks is some mysterious legendary mythical thing, but it is actually probably the snake you are keeping right now. That’s what Brooks canal snakes looked like, or worse. Post some pictures from the early days and compare to today’s Brooks, and everybody would say they ain’t all that.

You're misunderstanding me-my problem is not so much with the coloration of present day "multi-hets"-it's just that, as pointed out above, no one has made an attempt to breed only from canal animals, since equally light animals from all over peninsular florida- as well as darker "normal" Floridas that just happened to show up with desirable muatations-have been thrown into the mix.

I feel the issue simply goes beyond color. And I think many will agree that the old Brooksi showed certain physical traits which set them apart from other populations of Florida kings (small, conical heads for example-perhaps adapted for uncovering and consuming turtle eggs).
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I guess you would have to explore the pickle jars to say if they had small heads or something, which I doubt. I thought those guys that do that sort of thing were done with that and that’s why Brooks is not recognized as being anything but a color thing. Officially there is the Florida Kingsnake (what we call Brooks) the Peninsular Intergrade (what we call the Florida king) and the Chain king. Speaking non scientifically, the high yellow, sulfer. school bus yellow, etc are from Florida kings found outside the “Brooks” range. They usually don’t have the patternless sides. The mystery for me is the origin of Llemke’s axanthic Brooks. If those were from south Dade, then a lot of the ghost type morphs today are probably heavily “Brooks” snakes. All the flames, whiteside and albinos, etc, are mixes of Florida kings.

If those were from south Dade, then a lot of the ghost type morphs today are probably heavily “Brooks” snakes. All the flames, whiteside and albinos, etc, are mixes of Florida kings.

I know that some herpers (Fengya et al)that later moved to the new England states produced an axanthic from the authentic "canal" stock (hence New EWngland axanthics). I never outcrossed mine. That is why they look so good.

With the Lemke axanthics... Lloyd started to outbreed his axanthics to other Florida kings from the start. There were fertility problems within those original axanthics. So I doubt any of the axanthics that people got from Lloyd are locale. He probably bred them to whatever nice florida kings he had. I know he had some high red normal flames he was working with before he died.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I couldn't agree more with both you guy's!, and "Upscale's" posts were right on the money as far as where these can be found.

They ain't no mythical legendary animal, but as Brad stated(and I FULLY agree), it seems that today everyone just HAS to strive for creating animals that look TOTALLY different from what the form originally looked like. Heck, I have a lot of weird stuff to that you would never see in the wild too, and many morphs are indeed interesting have and breed, but I ALSO have many things that are exactly as they were MANY thousands(if not way more) years ago.

Only a very small handful of people now seem to appreciate any regular, genuine forms that aren't a morph of some kind. This to me is extremely sad to see. Most of the time it's the "old-timer's" that view it this way(me included), as most newer hobbyist's as a general rule seem to go "goo-goo" over producing absolutely nothing but "designer" stuff. I'm not talking just kingsnakes by any means either,....I see this with ALL snakes.

Sometimes I think that the only place some kid will be able to see a certain pure, original, untouched phenotype of certain snakes will only be in a snake book,....in the "history" chapter.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, you might appreciate this from living down here. It is so funny to me, I was just talking to a South American guy who goes out to prime Brooks area fishing along the canals, and we were talking about snakes. He knows of a place with huge moccasins and diamondbacks. Then he mentions there are this one kind, the most evil looking snake ever. Big and black and yellow. Looks like the devil. Those are the kingsnakes! Sound like the snake you want?!! I bet you wouldn’t let one of these big boys next to your pretty girls! But it would be pure Brooks!!!

I dig all of that, bro!

I really like those "evil" black and yellow jobs!..LOL!

Here's a kitten that was said to have been found from that same canal area he fished.

later my friend, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Heck, I have a lot of weird stuff to that you would never see in the wild too, and many morphs are indeed interesting have and breed, but I ALSO have many things that are exactly as they were MANY thousands(if not way more) years ago.

Ya but the flaw in your arguement is they existed like this for many thousnads of years. As it pertains to getula. I think one thing we have proven is that these snakes are constantly changing in the wild. There weren't any herpers 500 years ago. So we have no records of what a Florida kings looked like then. At most we go back 50-100 yrs. Even then they were different from what we find today.
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www.Bluerosy.com

There ain't no flaw to the point I was trying to get across.

Instead of thousands of years, let's just go back thirty?

Yeah, but anyone who has any thought process at all knows that ALL animals evolve in different ways, and will continue to do so until the end of time itself....and for that matter, nothing on the entire planet ever stays the same,...no matter what it is,...animal, water, rock, tree, bug, etc...

All these things change at entirely different rates at any given time too.

I would like to think that you understood my original point.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Rainer,....just another example of what I was really trying to convey is,....even though we know the Outer Banks of North Carolina are always changing from storms, etc..., I would bet a dollar to a dime that in spite of these changes that happen all the time, they are still very close representations of the way they were at LEAST several hundred years, if not way way beyond that.

As we both know, the glaciers that receeded well over ten thousand years ago was likely the cause of their isolation and unique look to begin with.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Rainer,....just another example of what I was really trying to convey is,....even though we know the Outer Banks of North Carolina are always changing from storms, etc..., I would bet a dollar to a dime that in spite of these changes that happen all the time, they are still very close representations of the way they were at LEAST several hundred years, if not way way beyond that.

As we both know, the glaciers that receeded well over ten thousand years ago was likely the cause of their isolation and unique look to begin with.

Doug,
The reason you don't understand me is because I espouse to a younger earth than you. Things change faster than you think.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I am sure some South Florida Calusa Indian boys probably had some real nice Books kings and baby dinosaurs for pets. Too bad the asteroid hit a few hundred years ago and messed everything up, with the great flood and all. A lot of people don’t know this, but the actual Noahs ark was built in Appalachicola. It took forty days to sail to Mount Ararat. Maybe the Everglades were Eden? Maybe that’s why those Everglades kingsnakes look like the devil!

Knew there had to be a reason I liked you
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I saw some extremely old literature written on parchment in a museum years ago, that when loosely interpreted stated that Noah tried desperately to find a pair of two nice yellow brooksi to bring aboard his ark, but could only manage to get his hands on a few "peanut butters" and one pewter..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

You guys only know what you have been taught. Or you would rather make jokes of something you know nothing of. If you would like I can reccomend some books on a young earth. Even FR suggested with his analogies, on how snakes evolve faster tham the general consensus thinks.

Ex nilio
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www.Bluerosy.com

Please accept my apologies, I just couldn’t help myself. My stepfather is a preacher who doesn’t believe in carbon dating and the whole thing. We can really go at it, which I take to be fun. There are Biblical stories that go back through much earlier civilizations basically unchanged. No matter what you believe, there is not much doubt that something pretty awesome happened and man was there to witness and repeat it to the next generation. I do believe in that.

I apologize as well-some can form their worldview on faith, others require evidence-the two sides are inarguable, and it ids not constructive to make fun.

It does seem funny that those of us who insist on evidence are being accused of blindly "accepting what we've been taught"
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I am just saying that science says there is a lot of evidence that suggests a younger earth than we thought. New things are coming out all the time that supports that.
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www.Bluerosy.com

As a biologist, I can assure you that isn't even remotely accurate.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Hari kirshna hari kirshna. Pleeeeease...

LMAO, so he crossed them with goini and went with flames!!!
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Todd Hughes

.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

LOL, here we go, Doug, fire up that time machine and let's see if it ain't so! I knew it wouldn't be long, great to see you back in action! Rainer, he is right about his 30 year analogy, they haven't changed that fast, but Doug, Rainer is right in that while we might not see it, the next generation or two will see something different, especially down in south Florida, there are many things down there that weren't there forty years ago, or a hundred, or a thousand...
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Todd Hughes

" there are many things down there that weren't there forty years ago, or a hundred, or a thousand..."

You're right on the money there Todd,....I have lived in South Florida my entire life, and fully agree with you there. No one can argue about things not being the way they used to be there anymore, that is for sure. But that isn't the #1 reason normal brooksi(het for nothing) aren't seen on vender tables.

It's just like what makes antiques desirable items to folks. They discard the old funiture they are used to seeing around the house all those years, and replace it with "new" contemporary pieces that are differently patterned, and colorful. Then years later when they notice that classic old plain patterned furniture will never be made again and is becoming increasingly scarce, it becomes a highly sought after, coveted item once again and commands top dollar. This is what we are noticing. I've been aware of this for many years now, and I think this was really the "meat" of some of these posts, at least mine anyway. It had absolutely nothing to do with if the earth was 20,000 years old, or 2.4 billion years old. Some started wandering off the point in quick order.

Anyway, glad you got a few giggles out of some of this, I know I certainly did..LOL!

Oh!,..I think I'm gonna' have to score a later model time machine too, this one I drive doesn't have chrome "spinner" rims..LOL!

later man, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

But that isn't the #1 reason normal brooksi(het for nothing) aren't seen on vender tables.

Doug,
Why does it have to be "het for nothing"? As I explained on my first post (which most either overlooked or chose to ignore) is I kept my reccessives pure. Meaning no outcrossing from ORIGINAL stock.

It is amazing to me nobody has asked me for a pic of one of these neonate s. florida locales.

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www.Bluerosy.com

Isn’t it somewhat true that all snakes are het for something? It just takes inbreeding a couple of generations to get a hatchling that expresses it as the alleles line up in mathmatical order. I think nature always allows that for adaptation and survival. So every dark Brooks has the genetic material to produce the finest light ones, hypo and probably albino too. That search for something better is so human, but why we have so many varieties of chickens, dogs and snakes. They are basically domesticated, but man takes too much credit. The genetics were always there in the snakes dog and chicken. Het for everything you see. Het for nothing means extinct.

Isn’t it somewhat true that all snakes are het for something? It just takes inbreeding a couple of generations to get a hatchling that expresses it as the alleles line up in mathmatical order. I think nature always allows that for adaptation and survival. So every dark Brooks has the genetic material to produce the finest light ones, hypo and probably albino too. That search for something better is so human, but why we have so many varieties of chickens, dogs and snakes. They are basically domesticated, but man takes too much credit. The genetics were always there in the snakes dog and chicken. Het for everything you see. Het for nothing means extinct.

WOW, great post!
Yes I know that if most people would start breeding the siblings of wildcaught snakes we would see that reccessive traits are quite easy to come by and quite a common occurance.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Why does it have to be "het for nothing"?"

Rainer, It really doesn't HAVE to be that way, or any other way in particular. As we all know, this hobby consists of LOTS of variety, and different strokes for different folks. Some like only morphs, some only normal, some like only locality, some like both, some don't mind combinations of either, or generic, etc.., etc....

With all the different "tastes" different people have today, some might prefer an animal to have never been introduced to, or ever even came from a genetic morph clutch of any kind at all, regardless if it "looks" normal. They might not want it to just simply "look" phenotypically "normal", but to not carry any recessive mutations from a previous guy's breeding project whatsoever.

It's really as simple as that. This should be simple enough to understand, different things interest different people.

And I think the "antique" analogy I posted is a good comparison to this.

later, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

hang on to that one Doug, it WILL come back in style and be worth millions, err BILLIONS!
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Todd Hughes

HAHAHAHA!!!

No doubt, Todd!

One guy came by the house to make me an offer on my classic time machine,...but he said that he would have preferred one with a few less miles, but he DID like the fact that I maintained it nicely with Armor-All, and really admired the upholstery job!..LOL!

Too funny!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

As we both know, the glaciers that receeded well over ten thousand years ago was likely the cause of their isolation and unique look to begin with.

~Doug

glaciers? they OBK's evovled like ALL/ANY isolated population does. we dont know how long they been there. glaciers? do you have a fossil date on getula? im sayin a few hundred years tops, arent OPINIONS a grand thing? only a few more years for the 2012 merger perhaps morphs are the Xmen of snakes hmmmm
heres a few

i said ya know John these are crosses i made in captivity he said, SON THEM THERE ARE SNAKES

ALRIGHT THEN!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

LOL! That is a great post.

I love the John Wayne pic. Where was that taken? What was John Wayne doing there?
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www.Bluerosy.com

I love the John Wayne pic. Where was that taken? What was John Wayne doing there?
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yeah it was cool hangin with the "Duke" he didnt like snakes though, it was at the annual san jacinto battle re-enactment the TPWD puts on at the san jacinto monument,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

...you know,....those natural white icy things that creep along the earth's surface??

This happened before you were born though, so I guess it's impossible for you to imagine it ever happening..LOL!

Do some research next time before you pop in!
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

They could of gotten there and evolved countless other ways too, it doesn't have to be from any ONE occurrence. Could have been storms, or whatever, certainly nobody really knows how.

I admire all your "knowledge" of getula's natural history, but I have a little surprise for ya', all things don't evolve in the same manner.

By the way,....nice "whatever it is" in the pics!.

I see you are hard at work "evolving" stuff..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Actually I beleive in devolving. With man at least.

I think the first men were much superior gentically. In intelligence as well as spritually. It has been a downward spiral ending in a Tom Selleck/Lorenzo Lamas look alike.
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www.Bluerosy.com

obk's evovled due to isolation sure maybe glaciers caused that maybe not, NOBODY KNOWS...
look past the trees and you will see a forest.
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

And this comes from peoples comments on this forum from years back...
I saw people posting pics of the normal yellow Brooksi they USED to have. More than a few all said the same thing.
They saw that Brooksi were going the way of morphs and they sold off their normals because they wanted no part of it. If that was not the most completely foolish way to look at the situation... I mean this is why I have NO sympathy for the "normal" snake lovers. When the snakes were available they let them slip through their fingers . I also think some people wish they could get them for the same reasons morph people breed snakes... NOW they'd be worth something.
People often refer to people like myself as part of the reason why THEY can not get the snakes THEY want... because there's only morphs now. Again...I breed what I want to breed, and people sit back and observe and complain when THEY THEMSELVES could have taken on the minimal investment of keeping a pure locale or non morph snake.
I agree it is a shame...there should be normal snakes of all kinds that have no designer blood in them available. These comments are about no one in particular...it's just observations I have made in the past 10 years..
I've been to Florida for weeks on end many times over the years and asked in shops and local breeders/ dealers and whatever and they looked at me like I was nuts. Basically "why on Earth would you want Florida/Brooks Kings?" I'd have paid top dollar for wild caughts in lousy condition just to get a project going but no luck.
If anyone is to blame... it is the people who left us nothing but photos of these snakes and let the projects fade away. I know it was hardly intentional, if breeders would have known there would be a demand I am sure they'd have stuck to their guns. Seems a saying like "you can't stop progress" is suitable. Like it or not the pet industry is what it is mostly do to morphs of all reptiles. It didn't start that way but it looks that way to me now.
Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

I like them both-locality animals as well as morphs-and I have plenty of both in my collection. Don't know why the loss of brooksi strikes me as particularly tragic-but it does. I know I'm as guilty as anyone.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

When I started the plan of becoming a breeder I wanted both normals and morphs. Even in 1999 people seemed to only want Hypos and Axanthics. Then...when White Sides hit the market people loved them but the hets were often dark like non Brooksi Floridana and I think THAT set people off on the ANTI morph crusade against Brooksi.
I met a guy in Daytona last season that I WISH I had not lost contact with. His were not high yellow but he had some incredible non morph Brooksi......... sigh......times like this I wish I didn't spend so much time in that dang hotel bar.
What pains me the most is those old pics.......those stunning snakes we will now only find by accident like when you come across something you can not believe you scored at a flea market or garage sale.
I bought a trio of het nothing Southern Pines last year because of what we're discussing. One female will go to a morph project but the pair will be for nothing but normal Pines. I'd do the same for Brooksi if I found them. The Pines fell into my lap when I could not afford them... but I got them anyway. I told the Mrs I MUST have these! She got over it haha...
I know they're out there but it's my guess people who have some nice normals do not know what they have... and as we all know you can not always judge a snake by what a hatchling looks like. Some killer babies are drab adults...
All we can do is keep searching....
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

agree with Tom, go out and get yourself whatever it is you want to work with, whether it is a locality snake, c.b.b. or w.c., or buy some nice morphs and be happy. I have some of both, but hope to supply het for nothing snakes when people need or want to work with them.
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Todd Hughes

">> Isnt "locality Brooksi" redundant???"

Yes, it should be, but the term brooksi has been misused so much I also catch myself using terms like "real brooksi" or "genuine brooksi" just to separate snakes whose ancestry (all of it) is from the orginal definition of brooksi.
Pointing out redundancy seems pretty picky when there is genuine error, possibly intended deception going on in labeling in so many other cases.
Personally, I put some value on knowing that all the genetics of a snake came from the same area. When it comes right down to it, I simply enjoy owning that animal more than mixed locality. That's my choice. Many others think similarly and many coulldn't care less. Other people's value on locality genetics may expire after a couple generations or whenever a recessive trait is visible. That's their choce too.
I should know better than to assault this expired equine. maybe too much caffeine this morning.
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

So true!

I liked the "assaulted equine" part too!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Lindsay wrote:
I should know better than to assault this expired equine

I had the same thought: Lindsay's becoming a damn poet!

Lindsay, I read these threads many times just looking for interesting quips. You threw out a beauty of a poetic phrase there. I love it!
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Mark

.
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Tom-that to me is a gorgeous example of a brooksi! As you've probably seen in my earlier posts, I really wish there were more around.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....