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Newly hatchling little girl.

VERY nice Adam.. Congrats!

~ Mike Russo

WOW! She is gorgeous!!

Chris Drake

That reminds me of one you posted [Mike] that really caught my eye. That's one hot snake
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Awesome looking alterna Adam! Did her litter mates look like her or were they more "normal'? I've never seen anything from Lajitas that looked like that. Where/who were the parents from? Ric B?

That is a very nice looking animal, not anything like any Lajitas alterna I have ever seen before.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Hey Adam,
Can you post pics of siblings and parents?
Thanks
Rick

Absolutely, I will photo the siblings and parents later this weekend. Both parents are from Ric Blair and I believe they are photographed together in Merker's book on page 41.

nt

What do you mean "Therein lies your answer"

Here is the clutch. Not your typical Lajitas. Nothing like my others.

Adam,
I think those are knockout alterna, its just alternas from Lajitas, as you well know are usually darker and alot more "speckled". Personally they look like theres some 277 or huecos in the woodpile. This is not a knock against you but where they came from. I and others don't believe they're pure Lajitas. Thats just my personal opinion which I am entitled to. I am not trying to enflame anything, just my 2 cents worth. BA

awesome clutch, great splendida food.

It is not likely at all that a whole clutch would come out so aberrant to the locality, unless something up the line was mixed somehow.

It would not hurt to see pics of the parents anyway, and as for just the looks, I would say those look like nice alterna, but it is hard to say they look like lajitas animals.

Can not remember who said this, but it looks like another bull got over the fence.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I have to agree on them looking unusual. I have many other lajitas from other sources and they are very specked. This pair is in Merker's book as River Roads. I got them from Ric Blair and I don't have any reason to doubt him. He has always been very honest about his localities. There is no offense taken from anyone doubting their true locality. And I was the one who said somewhere a bull must have gotten across the fence. I will do a little digging into their orgins before Ric. KEEP your desert kings away from them!!!

KEEP your desert kings away from them!!!,
lol, good response,.... i will, i may see u and john in a week, maybe.

It can be more incidental than that, an unwitnessed lock while cleaning a cage if you happen to put them in the same enclosure for a moment. Mixed up records. Or if you have "help" with the collection, who knows what they did. And if you acquired them from dozens of sources over time, who is to say that one of them did not pull a fast one up the chain and you ended up with it.

So many ways a locality breeder can end up with a non-locality breeding to dismiss it out of hand would be short sighted. I am glad to see that you plan to dig around a bit on the family tree here, I am sure that many people are waiting to see what you dredge up.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

like I was this season, and throw a female knoblochi in the wrong male's cage for a few days. Anyone looking for intergrade knoblochi X Applegate pyro? Doh!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

... share some pics of what comes out. Sometimes you can get some insight from these hybrid pairings.

I wonder how many animals are produced by the un-intended male when you introduce another male for combat? Not saying that both males could not be proper locality, just the un-intended pairing.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

If you are an Alterna Breeder or Collector, please stop trying to turn one locality into another. Meaning, if you buy a LAJITAS animal that looks like a 277, then guess what... it is most likely a 277 animal. If you are looking for a 277 looking animal, just buy a damn 277 animal. Stop trying to turn 277's into River Roads, and Xmas animals into Davis.

So, to paraphrase again... if you want lajitas, buy lajitas. Dont buy a black gap and try to "breed" for the lajitas look. If you want a 277, then buy a 277.

I think some folks want a "special" animal so badly that they look at any animal and start "rationlizing" how this animal could really be the locality they want.

JUST STOP!

Amen Steve!

So let me get this straight. If someone produces an animal that may not fit YOUR description of a localilty I should not buy it!

Hey, I personally have produced animals from 277 that are do not fit the usual 277 look, but that doesn't mean they are anything less than a 277. And YES I did catch both the adults that produced the unusual looking animals from 277.

I understand that when anyone of us purchase something that doesn't look right we must be suspicious. However, I know Ric and he likes to buy locality and also sometimes animals that may not fit the usual look. Somewhere signals got mixed up and I am content with assuming for now that the animals are not pure lajitas, but don't tell me not to buy an animal just because it doesn't look like an exact locality match. I am always very honest about where I have obtained my animals. So when I sell or trade any animal the person buying it can make a decision whether the sources are trustworthy or not.

And Brad, I personally have seen you buy snakes that were not typical of the locality.

In your post there are two key words...
Buy and Catch
If you "buy" something to sell as generics then I say feel free to get anything you like... Mix and match, make mocha frappucino phases, whatever fits your fancy. If you buy animals for locality and they dont "fit the bill" then expect maximum speculation.

If you Catch animals from localities then most of the time they are going to fit the bill. If you produce something from these pairings then great.

It boils down to reputation, honesty and trust. Lately it seems like lots of folks are making mistakes.
Numbers of animals are no excuse.

Trust me when I say this... I need to go through my own collection and do some serious evaluation as to whether the animals we have from certain folks are what they claimed to be... not just based upon looks either... This crap effects all of us in the herp community.

I do agree with you. Unfortunately the alterna community does not have a good system to verify locality other then a person's reputation. And some of the people who have had great reputations have made some mistakes. They are not bad guys, actually quite the contrary.

I bought the snakes in question thinking they were wonderful snakes that stretched the locality. But I also bought them from someone I trust and still do. Not to mention they were published in a book stating their locality. Lumped in with River Roads.

Please excuse any hostility and I am in no way upset at anyone who questions the locality of animals I post. Besides I have frozen all the hatchlings in question. No just kidding.

The only one I can remember that fits your accusation is the gap baby I picked up at your house from Dave Doherty. I would argue with anyone that the gap IS the most variable of all localities so that makes it almost impossible to catogorize as a typical "look". Adam I never meant to insinuate anything towards you on all of this. My original post said something to the affect that "in my opinion, which I'm entitled to" that doesn't look like anything I'd ever seen from Lajitas.. Even the light phase alterna that Ric talks about, that Norman caught, I bought from Norman but even it had alot of black tipping and many more bands than your babies or even the light phase adult. Our friend Don Soderburg showed me a photo almost 30 years ago of a light phase alterna morph that Mike Minchen caught at Lajitas and it looked almost identical to the one I later bought from Norman but nothing like yours. To quote you "I think the bull got over the fence" somewhere down the line before you ever owned them. Not intentionally, just a goof up. The babies are still 10"s in my book and of course are still 100% alterna.
Good luck next week with John. Hope there's no hard feelings.
BA

No hard feelings Brad and yes you are entitled to your opinion. The snake I was referring to was not the Gap, but the wild caught high orange blairs from Hollister. A snake with that much orange is not typical from any locality that I know, but none the less we both know it was 100% west Langtry.

Again, no hard feelings and thanks for the good luck gesture.

I have always liked the Blairs morphs better, but that is one cool looking alterna. Mike, I also really like those that you posted on the kingsnake forum.

I don't know the locales very well yet. Do lajitas show both blairs and alterna morphs, or mostly alternas?
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Kent

Just answered my own question. I went to the Alterna page, and found Lajitas under Presidio County. Looks like there are some of both phases. This may be a stupid question, but have you considered line breeding to get a solid gray snake with no markings? That would be a nice look in my opinion.
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Kent

WOW, Incredible Adam.
L8r Shannon

Here are the adults. I purchased them from Ric this spring. I just spoke with Ric and he bought them from Aaron Matson. Maybe we can get Aaron to make a post on these wonderful snakes.

Brad, here is that dark you like from Lajitas!

Except Aaron says he never produced any Lajitas. Hmmm?

I don't recognize those snakes. In fact I am fairly certain that I never produced any Lajitas ever. I haven't owned any Lajitas for many years though and it is hard to be called out on something that may have happened a long time ago.

Here is what I do remember. Me and Shannon caught a male Lajitas, I think in 2000. I have record of the capture but it has been so long I am not sure where it would be. Around that time I purchased a group of captive born babies because I thought our chances of pairing up the wc were slim. These came from Gary Keasler and Randy Limburg. The wc male died after 2 years in captivity and I am 100% certain he never bred. Shortly after he died I sold all my cb Lajitas and I am 100% certain niether of those snakes posted are any of the Lajitas I bought. Again, just to be clear, the snakes posted above are 100% for certain NOT the snakes I got from Gary and Randy.

I am 99.9% sure I never bred those cb Lajitas I had either. They were babies when I got them and as I said, I did not have them very long.

I do remember Ric buying several snakes from me over the years but all I actually remember selling him was pure 277 light phase pinstripes and some knoblochi.

As far as the 277's, the light one looks like one I could have produced. I have never produced any 277's that were as dark as the dark one but the pattern could fit ones I have sold and maybe some have went dark. There again though, none of the 277's I have held back ever went even close to that dark for me.

There goes the neighborhood...

Robert

Okay,first I can promise everyone on this forum one thing. I will never misrepresent a Locality on purpose. When I post or sell any snake I am 100% honest as to where I acquired the parents. I try very hard to only buy from people that I feel will sell me true locality animals. I have always held Ric with high integrity. He really feels that he bought these animals from Aaron and that Aaron had received them from someone else and not produced them. Hopefully, we can resolve this so I can determine the true lineage of the animals in question. But, as many of you know animals within a locality can vary greatly, particularly as we breed in several generations. I personally have collected several animals that did not fit the locality mold.

Just to set this straight. I did get the snakes from Aaron as Lajitas animals. I paid him 100.00 each for the snakes. I labeled them immediately and I had a really funky female that you would all say "yes" that is a representative of Lajitas. I was wanting to breed the male I got from him with the high orange female. I was talking to Aaron last night, and reminded him of a time about two years ago, that I brought up the snakes in question to him. It took him some time then and he finally acknowledged the snakes and talked to me about them back then. Funny thing now is that he cannot even remember that conversation either. I only buy snakes the first time from high end reputable people I know and trust. I believe that Aaron has just forgotten. He got them from someone else, and to me it was legit and trustworthy at the time. Maybe it will come back to him in time. Anyway there were no mix-ups on my end. That is exactly what happened. So take it for what you will. Gerold Merker took pictures of the snakes. The body and frame and colors are not of Val Verde origin. I guess you need to hold them and see them in person. If anybody can tell you that they are difinetly not Val Verde animals it would be Adam Sweetman himself or Gerold Merker who took the pictures. They know there localities well. Geold Merker can also attest to this and hopefully he will add to this report later. I would not have even brought Aaron's name into this if I knew I had not gotten them from him. That would be stupid on my part in doing so. The fact is he just does not remember now. He is very trustworthy and honerable and he would not lie for me or anyone else for that matter. Sorry if I put you on the spot Aaron. I just know 100% for a fact, that I bought them from you as Lajitas animals. I have only had 4 Lajitas animals so it was not a tough thing for me to remember. I put labels on the snakes as soon as I get them. The Hueco that was posted a while back that was purchased from Doherty was a no brainer to figure out. They were just to new to get that crazy that fast. But the statements that these came from Val Verde is crazy. They do not fit the mold only in the fact that they are graybands. The colors and the shapes, sizes and body girths are totaly different. I will talk to Merker but I believe he mistakenly grouped them in the River road stock when he took the pictures. They were always marker Lajitas on the boxes. He was here all day taking pictures!! For those of you that know me I do not lie or stretch the truth either. If I have a question about a locale I do not breed them. Don't need the money that bad, and I hate cross breeding localities period. I do have a female snake that I got from Andrew Godambe as a Boyscout some years back. It is healthy and has never been bred. It is free for anyone who will pay the shipping and for the box. I paid I believe 400.00 for the snake. Not that I don't trust Andrew or Dave D. but I never did ask enough questions when I bought it. When I got it I should have contacted Dave to see where he got from, for that amount of money. I bought it sight unseen because it was a female boyscout. Did not care if it was not beautiful or not from that locality. I feel 99% that it is not a Boy Scout. I just bite the bullet and shake it off. I was the looser on that one. Thanks...Ric Blair
P.S. Do any of you have the picture of the light phase alterna that Norm Nunley caught? That should raise some more questions for those of you who think there are no alterna phase at Lajitas. An adult light phase to boot.

Ric
I called you on the phone the first time you brought up the BSR on this forum. That time your post stated that I bought it from Joe Forks. Here are the facts: I was just starting to build a collection (10 years ago???) and purchased a female alterna from Dave D. I offered it as a BSR snake because that's what I bought it as. I didn't question it at the time, but I didn't think I'd match it up so I sold it to you. You talked to Dave about it before we made the deal and apparently were satisfied enough with the info you got. I'm glad you didn't breed it if you have questions about it. Post a picture of the snake and maybe someone will be able to shed some light on it...

Whoa! That's beautiful.