Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Someone needs to tell these nitwits that reptiles, and most other exotic animals for that matter, have not and do not pose any public safety concerns. Show them the statistics. That many more people die from falls down stairs, drown in swimming pools, etc etc. And you have to love how they show a pic of a rat snake in the video and say "this is a constrictor". As if it were a deadly and lethal rat snake
Ashwaubenon is in the Green Bay area by the way.

Quote
The Ashwaubenon Public Safety Department is working on an ordinance to ban exotic animals from the village.

Green Bay already has a similar ordinance in effect. Both communities say the law is needed even more now.

Poisonous rattlesnake. Constrictor. Neither snake is native to this part of the country but Ashwaubenon public safety officers came face-to-face with them while checking on a person's welfare inside an apartment last year.

"Right before we made entry they informed us there were exotic snakes in there, venomous snakes in there," Ashwaubenon humane officer Ryan Windorff said.

It happens in Green Bay, too.

"We had a fire even approximately four summers ago in an apartment complex, and when firemen went in they were trying to fight the fire and they came across a ten-and-a-half foot, eleven-foot red-tailed boa," city animal control officer Sharon Hensen recalled.

Both officers say they're encountering an increasing number of exotic animals -- anything from venous snakes and lizards to farm animals like roosters and donkeys living inside houses. Even hybrid wolves, all raised as pets.

"Things that you would normally consider finding in a zoo that are being kept in residential areas and residences," Windorff said, "so that's something we're concerned about."

Windorff wants to ban exotic animals purely for safety reasons.

"Any time you have any animal that's not domesticated -- as the traditional, domesticated dog and cat -- their behavior is unpredictable," he said.

Green Bay banned exotic animals five-and-a-half years ago but grants permits for about half the 45 exotic animals it comes across in a typical year.

"It's when we come across they're in wool blankets or they're laying on the floor of the kid's bedroom with a rock, that's, we have really difficult times," Hensen said.

There are no rabies vaccines for many of these animals, like the hybrid wolf, a wolf-dog mix.

An Ashwaubenon family with two small children had been raising one as a pet.

"Basically they're a vicious animal, a wild animal. They bite different than domestic dogs and they bite to kill, not to scare or injure," Windorff said.

He hopes to have an ordinance on the books as soon as possible.
http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11006244

I think some serious attention should be given the motives of such people. They seek office to control others' behavior. There is something fundamentally wrong with that type of thinking, that personality, that mind set.
I'm sick and tired of those that think they know better than I do and are constantly dictating that their personal taste and choices in life are what's best for me.
Their facts never bear out their case against what ever it is that they are currently against. On the contrary, they just expose their own lack of subject knowledge and their own propensity to play fast and loose with the truth.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Here is a copy of Green Bay's exact ordinance in regards to reptiles as of this last May:

All domestic animals kept in Green Bay need to be registered or licensed pursuant to city ordinances. In addition, some reptiles are not allowed at all within the city because they are on the “Prohibited Animal List.” Please see the ordinance copied below for more information. Thanks,

-Kail

-------------------

8.04 KEEPING OF ANIMALS AND FOWL. (Rep. & Rec. GO 5-04)

(1) DEFINITIONS.

(a) Exotic Animal. Those species of animal that are not domesticated by humans. Exotic animals include, but are not limited to, animals belonging to any or all of the orders and families on the Prohibited Animal List as adopted by the Common Council.

City of Green Bay Prohibited Animal List

The following orders and families, whether bred in the wild or in captivity, and any or all hybrids shall be defined as “Exotic Animals” pursuant to Sec. 8.04, Green Bay Municipal Code. The animals listed in parentheses are intended to act as examples and are not to be construed as an exhaustive list or limit the generality of each group of animals, unless otherwise specified:

…

2. Class Reptilia

(a) Order Squamata.

(i) Family Helodermatidae. (Gila Monsters and Mexican beaded lizards)

(ii) Family Varanidae. (Any monitor which will normally grow over two feet in length)

(iii) Family Iguanaidae. (Only green iguanas and rock iguanas)

(iv) Family Boidae. (All species whose adult length may exceed eight feet)

(v) Family Colubridae. (Boomslangs and African twig snakes)

(vi) Family Elapidae. (Coral snakes, cobras, mambas)

(vii) Family Nactricidae. Only keelback snakes.

(viii) Family Viperidae. (Copperheads, cottonmouths, rattlesnakes)

(b) Order Crocodilia. (Crocodiles, alligators, caimans, gavials)

--------------------------

Kail J. Decker

Assistant City Attorney

100 N. Jefferson, Room 200

Green Bay, WI 54301

920.448.3080 Phone

920.448.3081 Fax

I think we need to come together and fight as a team, if this information that you posted directly affects you, please IM me because I am not far but I will help if I can.

Matt

I sent out an email earlier, here is the reply I received. Obviously this ordinance was copied verbatim from Green Bay's ordinance:

I appreciate your concerns and thank you for contacting us regarding them. The goal of this ordinance is to prohibit people from keeping animals that we consider inherently dangerous. We understand and appreciate that there are many enthusiasts such as you who keep animals that some would consider "exotic" in a safe and responsible manner. When the animals are kept in a responsible manner, this department tends to not be aware of their existence within the Village. It is when the animals are being kept by untrained people and they escape or harm someone that we become aware of the situation.

As for the new story, we provided the media with some pictures of "less than common" animals that we have found over the last couple of years. This is not to say that all of these animals would be prohibited under the proposed ordinance, just to show that we are running into more than just the traditional cats and dogs. I am aware that "constrictor" is not a type of animal however this was information that the media had found and chose to report on.

Here is a proposed list of prohibited animals per the ordinance, if you have any opinions or concerns about some of the animals included in this list, feel free to contact me with these and I would be happy to discuss with you why they were included in this list.

1. Class Mammalia

(a) Order Chiroptera. (Any bat species)

(b) Order Artiodactyla. (Hippopotamuses, giraffes, camels, deer) Excludes domestic cattle, swine, sheep, goats, alpaca, and llama.

(c) Order Carnivora.

(i) Family Felidae. (Lions, tigers, cougars, leopards, ocelots, servals) Excluding domestic cats.

(ii) Family Canidae. (Wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals) Excluding domestic dogs.

(iii) Family Ursidae. (All bears)

(iv) Family Mustelidae. (Weasels, skunks, martins, minks) Excluding ferrets.

(v) Family Procyonidae. (Raccoons, coatis)

(vi) Family Hyaenidae. (Hyenas)

(vii) Family Viverridae. (Civets, genets, mongooses)

(d) Order Edentatia. (Anteaters, armadillos, sloths)

(e) Order Marsupialia. (Opossums, kangaroos, wallabies, sugar gliders)

(f) Order Perissodactyla. (Rhinoceroses, tapirs) Excluding horses, donkeys and mules).

(g) Order Primates. (Lemurs, monkeys, chimpanzees, gorillas)

(h) Order Proboscidae. (Elephants)

(i) Order Rodentia. (Squirrels, beavers, porcupines, prairie dogs) Excluding guinea pigs, rats, mice, gerbils, and hamsters.

2. Class Reptilia

(a) Order Squamata.

(i) Family Helodermatidae. (Gila Monsters and Mexican beaded lizards)

(ii) Family Varanidae. (Any monitor which will normally grow over two feet in length)

(iii) Family Iguanaidae. (Only green iguanas and rock iguanas)

(iv) Family Boidae. (All species whose adult length may exceed eight feet)

(v) Family Colubridae. (Boomslangs and African twig snakes)

(vi) Family Elapidae. (Coral snakes, cobras, mambas)

(vii) Family Nactricidae. Only keelback snakes.

(viii) Family Viperidae. (Copperheads, cottonmouths, rattlesnakes)

(b) Order Crocodilia. (Crocodiles, alligators, caimans, gavials)

3. Class Aves

(a) Order Falconiformes. (Eagles, hawks, vultures)

(b) Order Rheiformes. (Rheas)

(c) Order Struthioniformes. (Ostriches)

(d) Order Casuariiformes. (Cassowaries and emus)

(e) Order Strigiformes. (Owls)

4. Class Arachnida

(a) Order Scorpiones, Family Buthidae.

(i) Arabian fat-tailed scorpion - Androctonus crassicauda

(ii) Arizona centruroides scorpion - Centruroides exilicauda

(iii) Death stalker - Leiurus quinquestriatus

(iv) Egyptian yellow scorpion - Androctonus amoreuxi

(v) Israeli black scorpion - hottentotta judaicus

3

(vi) S.A. giant fat-tailed scorpion - Parabuthus transvaalicus

(vii) Sinai desert scorpion - Androctonus bicolor

(viii) Yellow desert scorpion - Androctonus australia

(b) Order Araneae, Family Therididae.

(i) Argentina red widow spider - Latrodectus coralinus

(ii) Brown widow spider - Latrodectus geometricus

(iii) Red-black widow - Latrodectus hasselti

(iv) Red widow spider - Latrodectus bishopi

(v) Southern black widow spider - Latrodectus mactans

(vi) Western widow - Latrodectus hesperus

(c) Order Araneae, Family Loxoscelidae, Brown recluse spider - Loxosceles reclusa 5. Class Chilopoda

(a) Order Scolopendromorpha, Family Scolopendridae.

(i) Amazon giant banded centipede - Scolopendra giganea

(ii) Arizona Tiger Centipede - Scolopendra viridis

(iii) Florida keys centipede - Scolopendra alternans

6. Any Federal or State Endangered or Threatened Species.

Sincerely,

Ryan M. Windorff #803

Community Service / Humane Officer

Ashwaubenon Dept. of Public Safety

2155 Holmgren Way

Ashwaubenon, WI 54304

920-492-2995

Office: 920-593-4489

Cell: 920-371-1708

Fax: 920-492-2986

www.ashpublicsafety.com

Here is my reply I sent back:

Mr. Windorff,

Thank you for your response. You state that the goal of this ordinance
is to prohibit people from owning these animals. However, the likely
result of this will be that owners will simply "go underground" so to
speak. When this occurs, many owners will be less likely to report
escapes, bites (in the case of venomous, or "hots" as they are known),
accidents, or failing their animal to veterinary clinics for treatment
when need be for fear of prosecution. And how many animals would be
turned loose, abandoned, or surrendered to already overburdened
rescues once they are banned? These are all "unintended consequences"
of a ban.
Again I cannot see every species of animal in your list as being a
significant threat to the public. Namely iguanas and monitors over two
feet (which include savannah, Blackthroat, and most other commonly
kept monitor species). Can the department provide any statistics or
evidence justifying listing iguanas and most monitors as being
"inherently dangerous" to the public?

Furthermore, I am troubled by the language pertaining to boas and
pythons that may exceed eight feet. My concern here is that again, a
myriad of species would be included based on one or two
extraordinarily large specimens that have been documented to have
reached or exceeded that length but normally attain smaller sizes. One
of the species of snakes that I currently keep and work with is the
Boa Constrictor species, (Boa constrictor ssp.) that ranges throughout
central and South America. It is a popular and widely kept pet snake,
that attains lengths anywhere from 5 to 10 feet on average based on
genetics, subspecies, locality, sex, etc. As such I am not aware of
any deaths or fatalities caused by the boa constrictor. As it is
written, this ordinance would ban the boa constrictor species as a
whole, and I feel that the language here should be narrowed down
further. Only a small handful of large boids (boa and python species)
have been known to cause human fatalities and only then when that
particular animal is improperly housed, or is handled incorrectly.

One final suggestion I have is possibly crafting an alternative method
of regulation such as allowing for an annual license or permit to keep
these animals. Provisions could be made mandating animals be kept in
secure and proper caging, are properly fed, etc. The state of Florida
for example has many such provisions already in place for keeping
"Reptiles of Concern" which include venomous reptiles and large boids.
This could be another possible method of generating revenue as well.
Either myself or other members of the responsible reptile keeping
community of Wisconsin are more than willing to offer assistance in
improving this ordinance and crafting more reasonable language that
benefits both the public and responsible reptile keepers and pet
owners who would be affected by a banning ordinance.

Nice!
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Most reptile owners are their own worse enemies .
They just dont care/Do not think it won't affect them thus dont get involved and rather spend $20 on a movie than give it to an org that will fight those that want to take their pets from them..

My friends father has few nice diff color ball pythons. He couldnt care less about bans because thinks since he has ball pythons it wont affect him.
Didnt even send a letter to politicians voicing his objective to potential retic/burm python ban .

I keep scarlet king and turtles and know any ban can trickle down to all herp owners.

It is cultural bias. It is a prejudicial opinion. A preconceived notion not based on facts.
That is why it is so important we continue with the battle to educate America.
The easiest way to get these guys attention is with the All Mighty Dollar. That's speaking their language. They have to be shown the economic benefits inherent with "Exotic" keeping as Companion Animals, Display Animals, Educational Animals, or Pets.
Law Makers have to be shown the true cost of "animal control" for these animals is in fact a minimal portion of the entire animal control issue. Animal Control personnel can easily and cost effectively be trained in such matters.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think they should include dangerous humans under the Primate section.

"There are no rabies vaccines for many of these animals"

I sincerely hope they aren't refering to reptiles in that statement.