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I have to much free time on my hands today. Anyone have some Louisiana pine pics to share?

Good question Not sure if I've posted these before but just in case...

'06 Male, Bart Bruno origin...

'06 Female, Vandeventer origin

Hope there's more to follow.

Excellent pics of outstanding looking herps. Hope there are more for you to evetually post pics of as well. Thanks for sharing.

Rich Hebron

That '06 Male is incredible!! the colours are really nice and he looks one healthy boy.

AL

Thanks much Al,

I believe you are correct...this snake is pretty ripped, a very cool customer. He's about 56" now (my best guess), and a great feeder.

Very nice looking snake. Unfortunately I am not familiar with Bart's line. I'm attempting to separate all these lines so I know what is what when people speak of them. Do you have any additional history on this line that you would care to share?

Thanks

Thanks Rich,
I'm pretty new to the LA Pine thing (read issues). Apparently there have been at least some cases of interbreeding which is quite disappointing. I would certainly like to know more about what's going on but this seems to be a sensitive topic.

The "high yellow" male was acquired from Will Bird who took it from Phil Peak who claims to have gotten it from Bart Bruno who assured Phil it is pure ruthveni. Will and Phil are well known for their ongoing accomplishments as keepers and herpetologists. I know Bart has worked with pits forever. All three names seem to be held in high respect and I have no reason to doubt it. Yes, the animal is insanely yellow and some have suggested that albeit pure ruthveni this is a result of line breeding. Don't know how you'd get that much yellow from a bull eh?

The more subdued female was acquired from Brian Sharp, who I also understand to be of high repute. He sent me a copy of a receipt from T. Vandeventer for one of her parents, a male, dated Sep. 1990 as sold to Eric Richter. I did not receive any such for the dam but Brian assured me of its purity.

As I mentioned, both animals are reportedly of Bienville Parrish stock.

I made one attempt recently to contact Bart Bruno through this forum and have not yet received a reply. I would very much enjoy receiving his input here as well as that of any others, "in the know".

Yes, I have only word of mouth and by myself have no real means of assurance other than circumstances and the honorable character of those individuals mention. Of course it would be nice if some genetics could be done on them...is this kind of thing ever feasible?

I would love to be absolutely certain but in either case, these are really nice animals and I am thrilled to have them.

Sure glad there is some interest in these special snakes.

Hope that helps,
Brad Sillasen,
Ventura, CA

I am not new to pines as Northerns have always been at the top of my list with Black Pines close behind. LA pines though are not something I have had an easy time finding or getting data about. Most of my info. is dated. I followed writings about such by Steve Reichling quite a while back. Since then I have lost track of what hobbyists were actually working with. Yes, it has been a sensitive topic to some but not all. I believe keeping up with their history will help much. When those in the know typically keep communications open it has a way of revealing said tainted stock in this hobby.

Interbreeding has gone on to a certain degree but I do not believe all of it to be intentional. Many, that may not be familiar with any herp could acquire some tainted lines. Then if bred, they would market said herps as same. Ignorance is bliss seems to fit here. Then again, it should become obvious immediately after your said LA pine female drops a dozen eggs. That has happened

There is no excuse though for those that deliberatly create such specimeins to dupe others. I believe money is not the only motivating factor involved here.

So, yes, it is great when knowledge is spread openly. I actually sent an e-mail to Bart recently as well. My question involved Northern Pine lines as well as some Eastern Foxsnakes he has worked with. I have yet to hear back from him but I'm sure he would not have any problem discussing said info.

It would be great though if more did get involved and try to explain to people like me what and when the current lines began, originated from and whatever else that would seem relevant. I like to know everything I can about what I keep.

Being open about all this can only benefit the future of our hobby. This hobby will always progress as people typically like new things but preserving natural lines should remain a goal for many as well.

Hi Rich,

I remember you and I having the discussion on "Jersey" pines many many years ago. I think you, at the time, was kind of upset over people advertising "Jersey Pines" and they had absolutley no paper work or trail to demonstrate that what they were selling where indeed jersey stock. I know that discussion really openned my eyes to what you were saying. Now, when it comes to the LA pines, the only way of really knowing what you have, would be either to have caught the animal yourself or get it directly from the person, who you could trust, that caught the animal. A lot of good and honest people have been duped concerning LA pnes. I maintain a dozen of them myself, and obtained them from a very reputable guy, who obtained them from a very reputable guy, but, I will not, and cannot guarantee that they are pure LA pines, even though they look like LA pines, lay only three or four eggs 5 inches long like La pines. When it comes to LA pines, the water is just to muddy, unless the above criteria is met.

Dan

Hey Dan, hope all is well. Been a longtime...

Yeah, I will never forget that thread. Long winded. Seems many others will never forget it as well. Took up almost an entire page LOL.

I was not upset actually, but it appeared many others were. It only started as one question asked of three different breeders online, then every breeder that year who was selling Northern Pines in Daytona. It amazed me that every single person I asked had said "barrens" stock. Not one said other wise. I found that very odd so I asked every one of them how do you know? Thats when it became ugly. The thought of asking for background info. pissed many off. Ironic. I could not believe everyone accepted such labeling as fact. I guess we have to accept the fact that ALL northern pines being kept in captivity are descendants of NJ stock

It's not only with pituophis. For example Kingsnakes are another issue. I think every King that comes out of Florida is a "Brooksi". Serious, just follow the posts and classifieds. Thats what they all say today. Really, who am I to question what anyone said? This premise is whacked. I have never come across such animosity (another's word used in this Hobby)that exists in herpetoculture anywhere else outside of my immediate family.

Anyway, thats alot of LA pines. Wow. I'm with you there. I know a few, very few actually that I would trust with any pine's heritage. As you probably recall, pines are my passion. Always have been. That being said, I always want to know the history of what I maintain. A simple it's this or that does not work with me. Not even with the individuals I do trust. The best one can do is research as much as possible. Do the ground work. Ask alot of guestions and read everything you can about what you are interested in. If someone is offended or silent of specifics it would be wise to pass up those herps.

These days I have cut out all the other herps and such and focus on non-morph Pines. I think thats where I will remain until I reach the end of the line. Hmm, nothing else to write. Odd for me LOL

Great hearing from you Dan,

Best regards, Rich

"It's not only with pituophis. For example Kingsnakes are another issue. I think every King that comes out of Florida is a "Brooksi". Serious, just follow the posts and classifieds. Thats what they all say today. Really, who am I to question what anyone said? This premise is whacked. I have never come across such animosity (another's word used in this Hobby)that exists in herpetoculture anywhere else outside of my immediate family."

HAHAHA!!!,....couldn't help but to cut in here, and tell you how absolutely CORRECT you are on that!..LOL!,....typical "know nothing" marketing ploy...LOL!

great comments regarding all this other stuff too by the way!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yes...Rich, I do remember that thread and it was a good one. It is funny, because up until that time I had never really given much thought to locale specific animals. At first I thought you were making a mountain out of a mole hill, but as the thread advanced, I saw your point. Like you, I have some locale specific pines that are not Jersey pines (which I like better then the Jersey's) and I have four that came from Jersey stock from the guy who actually caught the F1's over 40 years ago in Jersey.

The bad thing about the LA pines, is that a well known zoo distributed hybrids years ago as LA pines, and these animals were in circulation in the herp community for many years as "pure breds" before it was admitted by that zoo that they had distributed hybrids. Many of those hybrids got mixed in with other breeding project of LA pines and no one was able to put humpty dumpty back together again. I know there are some pure stock out there...but, my criteara for pure LA pines is: I want to know who caught the original snake, when and where? If that can't be answered and verified, then I don't accept it as pure. The twelve that I have, the four parents were purchased, but the other eight are the offsprings of them. Are they pure LA pines? I think so, but, I will not gaurantee it because the person I purchased them from, though he is a well known and respected person, could not answer that question.

Rich, good to hear from you again, and good luck with your pituophis. I guess you and I have been on this forum since it started!!! My how time flies when you are having fun!!!

Dan

Dan,

"Like you, I have some locale specific pines that are not Jersey pines (which I like better then the Jersey's) and I have four that came from Jersey stock from the guy who actually caught the F1's over 40 years ago in Jersey."

There you have it. That's why I remember that thread so well. Not many knew this, only those close to me BUT my actual post was not to find "barrens" stock. Already had some from stock originally caught many years ago along with some stock from a Zoo (line) that worked exstensively in that area for quite some time.

I was looking for Pines from other areas. That's why the thread was an odd one. Everyone was focusing on their said "barrens" stock and credibility. I never had the chance to go any further. Thread had a mind of it's own LOL.

To this day though I have yet to see any Reds or Yellows as I had come across many years ago. There may be some out there but thus far what I have seen are nice but not really what I recall.

LA pines have been muddied. Know about the Zoo you speak of and some who had said stock. I don't know how you can ever fix such damage that has been created. I sometimes think this hobby flourished in spite of itself or is "us" more appropriate a word to use here.

I will keep up with this but more on a private level. Thanks to all who posted pics and added their thoughts.

Best regards, Rich Hebron

You don't have to try to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Get your pure Louisiana Pinesnakes directly from the source. ME! People pay our higher prices because they know who I am and how I feel about hybrids.

I get so pissed off with this hybrid crap after all the work Bob Young and I put into introducing this virtually unknown species to the breeding community. We didn't even produce any this year out of disgust.

Even recently, "big time" (in their minds) breeders have come to my facility and could not identify Louisiana Pinesnakes which were stretched out in plain view. Thought they were Bullsnakes and never gave them a second look. I guess that means that these "Pit officianados" can't identify a Bullsnake either!

Louisiana Pinesnakes barely resemble Bullsnakes or any of the other pines for that matter. Louisiana Pinesnakes are not pretty snakes. They are dull and muddy compared to other pines. Captive raised specimens are often a bit more colorful and clean, but I'll tell you, I have problems with that bright yellow Bull-headed "ruthveni." No offense, but this has vexed me for two decades. Looks like a Stillwater Bullsnake entered this particular equation. Most people use jani when they need a mate for their ruthveni.

And for the record, Bob and I have never told a living soul where our 11 founder animals came from, for fear of the area being raped. Others *presume* to know, but don't...

Sorry for the rant. I'm just sour on the subject.

Terry Vandeventer

I agree that Jani were likely used in the past in the Trumbower and Northern's in the old Ginter line, but now you would be suprised at hom many hybrids have "Northern Bull" and black pine in the mix. Many hybrids are starting to "look good" because people used a pure male or female to "clean up" their tainted stock.

You don't say as much but I think you would agree, there are likely as many if not more hybrids out there than pures. Unfortunately a person can't trust "Vandeventer" animals unless they come from you or someone like Richter (just one example, there are a fe others) because of what is listed above. It all remains the same now as it did 10-15 years ago, you have to really put your nose to the wheel and research what you are thinking of purchasing and ultimately do you trust the person selling it to you is giving you the truth.

I was about to post directly to Terry's post but your input hit much of what I was about to say. I also believe though many new to this hobby that have interest will keep this topic alive for many years to come. For those that want pines for what they are and not for, say for example monetary gain will (as they should) always research new stock. With our continued research we can possibly prevent such things as cross bred individuals from getting into any pure lines of herps much sooner.

I was glad to see that Terry spoke regarding this subject and I totally agree with his statement regarding no need to put Humpty back together. The reality is that if one is concerned about purity of the animals they breed, all members of the Genus can be questionable. Are your hypo vertebralis pure?, your albino annectans? your northern pines? Jani? etc. Who knows why this stuff happens.. People are lazy, greedy, or just bored. Having genetically authentic animals is not as important to some as it is to others so do your homework and add to your collection from breeders who also value purity.

One thing is for sure you can not tell if your ruthveni is clean just by looking at it. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO JUDGE RUTHVENI PURITY BASED ON THE SNAKE'S APPEARANCE! I always absolutely hate that my name is associated with impure ruthveni, but it is a fact. I got burned but thanks to the help of some friends who had more experience than me (thanks KJ and Bobby F., I was able to track down the illegitimate source and discontinue that tainted blood line. What did I do after that? I went to a breeder who is absolutely above board, Eric Richter, who had ruthveni directly from Terry's collection and got a legitimate pair, and I called Terry to verify that Eric had his animals.

Brian S. and a couple of other folks and myself have been having this discussion off and on for a number on months now and a few things come to mind. 1) the perception of the number of ruthveni mutts out there probably exceeds the actual numbers..... just a gut feeling. 2) there probably exists a number of pure ruthevni out there (in collections and in the wild) that LOOK atypical and would not pass as pure but everyone is so jumpy they get classified as impure, and 3). The only real way to assure that you are getting real P.ruthveni is to do some expensive genetic work or to get them from the source or as close as possible, ie Terry or others who are trusted and have a complete and reasonable back story with their animals.

I agree with Terry that good ruthveni are "not pretty" animals in the classic sense. I don't dabble with show or pet store purchases so I do not see many counterfit ruthveni but it seems odd that jani would be a go to host species. I did hear a story of a guy who produced mutts in the mid 90's by breeding sayi with lodingi and I am told that they looked real. The mutts I origianlly had where said to be influenced with melanoluecus. The guy denied it originally but finally admitted to breeding northern into what was a clean Rapides Parrish ruthveni line..... quote "to strengthen the blood line" . The individuals actually looked identical to the image in Mara's pit book.... that one was probably a mix!

The original post was basically for pics. No different than my previous posts made recently. I like to see what people are working with and try to also help the newer herpers out with locale info. if needed every couple of years. I do not do this to market any herps or for bragging rights on how many I produced of such and such. Why I do this is because I like to hear from the quiet guys and what they are up to. Stuff over purity and pricing for example is OK provided it is done in an informative manner. When money though is thrown into the mix it can possibly project confusion to others.

It's excellent that that some people have put so much time and money into researching and acquiring pure lines, locales etc. of various herps in an effort to provide them to the public. But to stop producing them now because of the way things are today does not make sense to me. From my inbox, it appears others are not sure how to take this message as well. You have a pure line of herp. Pure line is very rare and far from common. People are not always willing to pay a high price for them. So, is the real message perceived by many, I'm not breeding them because no one will pay my price? Is it because of the competition between pure lines marketed along side tainted lines? Some other variations exist of the same type of questioning as well but I hope the point was already made.

Nothing wrong with making some money as that's what makes our Country so great. Capitalism rules but it also has rules. Supply and demand is a very important rule. Price drop, so cut supply to increase price, right? More than that actually, just an example. Many herpers typically move on to other herps when prices diminish with a type they may have focused on for some time.Sort of similar to a breeder that has stopped working with diminished valued herps in lieu of a now in demand pricier type. With rare herps though I think it better to keep breeding pures to help their existence instead of restricting production.

I personally have worked with pines since the 70's. I can tell you this. No one will make any money working with non-het specific locale pines. They do not fit the overall scheme of money makers. You really need to love these guys to keep working with them.

Many of the big breeders may truly enjoy working with herps but some move on at times to whatever can bring in the greater bucks. Always changing herps and such to supply demand. Is that the message we should be sending to all the new keepers? Money is a great motivator but it is just this attitude about monetary worth that has caused a decrease in many wild types being kept in this hobby as a whole.

This post was not meant to attack anyone. It is just an observation of the whole. Many reasons can be attributed to all of the above but to break it all down, we could probably go on forever. In my opinion we have two distinct types of people in Herpetoculture. Creators and preservationists. On occasion both types can confuse the difference and cross a gray area between the two. Or is that you can not be half pregnant with a line drawn between the two? It is what it is but sometimes I just do not know what is, is LOL

If you read all this, remember, this is just my opinion on how I feel about all this. And most know what the say about opinions. So I hope no one took any of this this personal

Brought to my attention part of what I previously wrote did not make any sense

The original post was basically for pics. No different than my previous posts made recently. I like to see what people are working with and try to also help the newer herpers out with locale info. if needed every couple of years. I do not do this to market any herps or for bragging rights on how many I produced of such and such. Why I do this is because I like to hear from the quiet guys and what they are up to. Stuff over purity and pricing for example is OK provided it is done in an informative manner. When money though is thrown into the mix it can possibly project confusion to others.

It's excellent that some people have put so much time and money into researching and acquiring pure lines, locales etc. of various herps in an effort to provide them to the public. But to stop producing them now because of the way things are today does not make sense to me. From my inbox, it appears others are not sure how to take this message as well. You have a pure line of herp. Pure line is very rare and far from common. People are not always willing to pay a high price for them. So, is the real message perceived by many, I'm not breeding them because no one will pay my price? Is it because of the competition between pure lines marketed along side tainted lines? Some other variations exist of the same type of questioning as well but I hope the point was already made.

Nothing wrong with making some money as that's what makes our Country so great. Capitalism rules but it also has rules. Supply and demand is a very important rule. Price drop, so cut supply to increase price, right? More than that actually, just an example. Not producing the herps because of lack of interest by others (demand) is sort of similar to a breeder that has stopped working with diminished valued herps in lieu of a now in demand pricier type. With rare herps though I think it better to keep breeding pures to help their existence instead of restricting production.

I personally have worked with pines since the 70's. I can tell you this. No one will make any money working with non-het specific locale pines. They do not fit the overall scheme of money makers. You really need to love these guys to keep working with them.

Many of the big breeders may truly enjoy working with herps but some move on at times to whatever can bring in the greater bucks. Always changing herps and such to supply demand. Is that the message we should be sending to all the new keepers? Money is a great motivator but it is just this attitude about monetary worth that has caused a decrease in many wild types being kept in this hobby as a whole.

This post was not meant to attack anyone. It is just an observation of the whole. Many reasons can be attributed to all of the above but to break it all down, we could probably go on forever. In my opinion we have two distinct types of people in Herpetoculture. Creators and preservationists. On occasion both types can confuse the difference and cross a gray area between the two. Or is just that you can not be half pregnant with a line drawn between the two? It is what it is but sometimes I just do not know what is, is LOL

If you read all this, remember, this is just my opinion on how I feel about all this. And most know what the say about opinions. So I hope no one took any of this this personal

All,
I have really enjoyed this thread, and I hope to continue to enjoy it for some time. I have to say that as a Louisiana pine snake rookie it has been quite a pleasure to read the likes of so many knowledgeable people here. Additionally I am really blessed to have people like Bob Fengya and John Ginter on speed dial so I can call them and harass them at all times of the day and night, but I digress.

At any rate, I am an admitted nut case about genetics and bloodlines and lineage. Perhaps a little too Nazi-like in my obsession to obtain and someday create animals that are as far apart genetically as possible. Soon, after a few more snakes make their way into the house, I will make a detailed post about what I have gone through over just the last two months in trying to piece together a pure, unrelated group of P. ruthveni. Many of you may be surprised, others will not be. By the way, while I am only a 2-month-old P. ruthveni addict, I am not as brand new regarding Pituophis, as I have been keeping northern pines for a few years now.

That all said, I just wanted to rear my ugly head for a minute since my name has come up a couple times and say hello and also show my appreciation for the knowledge that so many of you have shared with me and continue to share with all of us.

Cheers,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

Hey Terry, I understand where you are coming from. I think most informed pituophis people would not have any problems purchasing "ruthveni" from you nor would question their "authenticity". With that being said though, someone purchasing from you and then losing one of the animals down the line and substituting a bull, pine or whatever; then selling offspring from them as originating from "Terry Vandeventer stock" just would not be a true statement. When it comes to LA pines, there are only three or four names that I would trust for "authenticity". That is not to say that others do not have true LA pines...I just wouldn't guarantee them. As you said in your post "you are not going to reveal where they were caught" but, you do "know" where they came from, thus you KNOW that it is a true "ruthveni'. I just want that same confidence on a animal before I would put a quarantee on it.

I have been wondering though, where some of those nice shiney looking "ruthveni" originiated from and never thought about "jani". Now I see said the blind man!

Dan

Thanks Terry for your valuable input.

"I have problems with that bright yellow Bull-headed "ruthveni."

Are you referring to the top one in my first post to this thread and that it could not be a true ruthveni? How about the second, more subdued female? Did you read my subsequent post detailing what I was told regarding their origins?

Don't get me wrong, I don't presume to know anything and I would like to understand more the realities here.

All that said, I'm having a tough time seeing any jani in this guy??? Is that what you meant?

Whatever it is, I think this is one of the best looking pits I've seen but sad to think it would be hybrid...which I too detest. I do enjoy some breeds and morphs but fine specimens of natural lines are what really float my boat.

Cheers,
Brad

Here's some old pics of adults makin the babies from below!
The babies are just about breeding size now. I really got to take some new pics!
Enjoy
Karl

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Boneyardreptiles.com

Wow! That last one is especially nice!

That is a female she should breed next year!
Here's the clutch the 2 hatched from.

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Boneyardreptiles.com

...no wonder there ain't more of 'em out there. Maybe the should be talking to Octomom

Nice pics, the last hatchling appears not the norm. Interesting.

Great pics Karl thanks for sharin'!

The orange hues on those young are sweet,be interesting to see how they develop as the mature.

AL

Thanks
I'll try and snap some new pics. The babies in the pic are 07's. I have 08's and 09's I still have not taken pics of yet.
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Boneyardreptiles.com

The best looking Pine/Bull hybrids I have seen in years, hands down!

Figures YOU wouldn't know what you are lookin at!!!
The adult male in the pic is from a wild caught Bienvielle male from Mike Monlezun bred to Vandeventer Female and the female is from the same wild caught Bienvielle male to a Memphis zoo female.
I know YOU are just tryin to start trouble but any one who thinks they are not pure I invite you to check the sources.
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Boneyardreptiles.com

The genetics on the male is right but your genetics on the female isn't. The female's mother is not a WC x Memphis Zoo, she is from the Monlezaun WC Mal x (Memphis Male x Red Phase WC). They are pure, just presented a little off.

There are some hybrids in this thread, but not these. No matter how "well regarded" a breeder is, mistakes happen. Start researching Steve Jensen to locate the hybrids in the thread.

I was told it was from the Monlezun male bred back to his daughter from a Memphis zoo female. I know the person has the WC red X Memphis zoo but he said that mine are not from that animal.
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Boneyardreptiles.com

I checked with the person I got them from and the female is from the DAUGHTER of the Monlezun WC Male x (Memphis Male x Red Phase WC)bred back to the Monlezun WC male. When he said it was not from that animal he meant literally but it does have that blood.
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Boneyardreptiles.com

"Figures YOU wouldn't know what you are lookin at!!!"

Really? Back in 1995 I was among the first Europeans to breed both Louisiana Pines and Black Pines. I actually do know "Pits".

"The adult male in the pic is from a wild caught Bienvielle male from Mike Monlezun bred to Vandeventer Female and the female is from the same wild caught Bienvielle male to a Memphis zoo female. I know YOU are just tryin to start trouble but any one who thinks they are not pure I invite you to check the sources."

Pardon my scepticism, but we all know that many of the "Louisiana Pine Snakes" out there are actually hybrids, and that most owners aren't even aware. Yours look a just a little too reddish to me, like there could be a Kingsville Red Bull in the mix. That was actually the first thing I thought of when I saw your animals. I cannot possibly check your sources, but if I'm wrong then I must admit that your animals are quite exceptional. On the other hand, exactly how deep did you go while checking your sources, assuming you have?

It seemed like you were just trying to start trouble but if that's not the case I apologize. The snakes are pure, sources were checked and thanks for the compliment.
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Boneyardreptiles.com

This female will be ready to breed next season...almost bred this year but decided to give her another year.

Scott John Reptiles

Nice! Any background info her?
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Boneyardreptiles.com

Mine are from the Vandeventer line.

Here is a 2009 male hatchling just before he swallowed a small adult mouse. His lineage is Vandeventer stock bred by Eric Richter brokered to me by Scott Michaels. I have one of his brothers and one of his sisters, too, for a reverse trio. Since I hate line breeding almost as much as hybridization I am working on getting a hold of specimens of the opposite sex for each animal to make three pairs of completely unrelated, pure LA pines. Wish me luck LOL!!
Anyway, enjoy ))


PS----Yes I was feeding him in the bed of my pickup truck, and no I am not a red neck....I am a piney, and yes there is a difference ))
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--Brian Scott