Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lack of antivenom in a private venomous collection in urban areas (or any area) is nothing short of a bomb waiting to go off. Eventually the irresponsibility and immorality of venomous hobbyist's is going to effect someone in the general populace. (Like the mamba not being returned to the cage, hoppin out the window into the neighbors sandbox for instance) Just look at what the feds have done in 8 states, the confiscations, charges filed etc. Do you really think that there is not a Fish and Game officer sitting on his computer, reading all of the post's and petty schoolyard arguments, shaking his head saying " what can I do to stop these people that can't even agree amongst themselves on some of the most basic moralities"? Like self regulating the species they keep with the anti venom they store in the refridgerator?
Do you really think they don't sit and read about a man in Florida walking around proud of how much money he made from publicity of his cobra bite, showing off a scar on his torso?
The man who died of a Rhino bite, because he was completely unprepared for an allergic reaction, Survey's on another website that ask if it was illegal in your area to own venomous snakes, would you continue to keep your snakes? Almost everyone said yes??? How about the man that hypes up self immunizing with mamba venom to little kids asking a simple question on how to become a venom researcher? Try Puff Adder venom buddy, Then he will impress someone, until then the antics people are pulling in this hobby are destroying it for everybody. This is rediculous we are our own worst enemy! It's just a matter of how long......

You do a real good job on stating the Down side on this and you do have a point....Access to anti-venom is just plain sense. But calling it immoral to not have any at home is way off the deep end. I do not keep anti-venom at home. The shelf life is too short and the cost (av $3,500 per vial) is way beyond my means. Fortunately, I live in South Florida where we have Venom One...Which I have contacts with.
My home has undergone repeated inspection (and passed)by Game and Fish...and I have made a personal choice about not keeping Mambas, Boomslangs, cobras...and other large fast moving venomous. My home collection is restricted to small viperine and Oglyphs...the only exception being a shieldnose cobra.
I agree that the idiots who get macho about their bites and the animals they keep are Dumb. But the answer is more about Education and Personal responsibility than making blanket statements...The press will do that without our help.
Frank

You are fortunate to live in Florida with ready access to serum, however it is not that expensive, the most expensive serum I ever bought was Taipan for 1200.00 per vial granted needing 5-7 or many more vials is a lot of money. What I am saying is people need to have access to anti venom besides the closest zoo. If you keep venomous snakes you should budget money to provide for serum before and during an ownership of serum, even local Crotalids and such should not be relying on the local hospital to provide serum for an "illegitimate" bite when there are "normal" people "accidentally" being bitten.
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not attacking anyone personally, I am trying to change the way we go about owning these animals before the Feds do! Because it's comeing, if we don't weed out the people that are bad press, and start doing things responsibly we are not gonna be able to at all.
Oh, I would find my own Toxicologist in Miami besides "Venom One" to treat a bite to myself if I lived there, the things I have seen lead me to believe they innapropriately give serum many times when not needed. Many times acting like "Cowboys" themselves. My own two cents.

First in all seriousnes...Would love to know where you got antivenom that cheap. My wife is a Toxinologist and a member of the International Society of Toxinologists so we are pretty up on the going rates. I happen to know one of the EMT's that is with Venom One. He spoke at our herp society. Can't agree with your assesment of them as being "Cowboys". but enough said. I have stated repeatedly in this and other forums that we need to police our own..In that part I do agree with you...But if you want to elicit change, I suggest the voice of reason over Dramatic statements. people are more likely to listen.
Frank

The man that immunizes has no need for antivenom bub.
Also several of you rants are false here are a couple.

"How about the man that hypes up self immunizing with mamba venom to little kids asking a simple question on how to become a venom researcher? Try Puff Adder venom buddy,."

If you want to be a venom researcher you will be bit its a fact.
sooner or later dont get me wrong some will never be bit but you know.
and puff adder venom is weak crap venom you know NOTHING! hahah NOOB!

The rhino bite death was due to the fact that av was given to late get the facts right bub. how did anaphaxis get there.

Ok enough of this crap. no more replies to you
later troll

bud

I agree with you in spirit...But you are not quite right on being beyond the need of anti-venom because of immunity...There is no such thing as immunization against All Venoms. Even a rare case like Haas (who certainly has enough immunities) is not totally beyond the effects of the bites (he still gets)of the snakes he works with. There are too many variables from the individualltiy of each snake, to venom yield to the fact that our own bodies don't stay the same...all can determine the seriousness of a bite. Anti-venom is not a cure all, neither is self immunization.
Frank

..you looked haha

Show me a self-sticker of venom that is IMMUNE ( check your definitions in the dictionary) one that has never used serum, not gonna happen.
Show me some intelligence my simpleton little friend and refrain from the schoolyard big penis little penis fight, I as well as the others in this forum that would like to discuss matters of interest have no time for name calling.
As for Puff Adder venom, try it let me know what happens!!
Show me a Rhino bite case history that caused respiratory distress/collapse in less than 15 minutes without anaphalaxia. Antivenom was on hand and being used in that bite, but it did little/no good..... lack of oxygen tends to cause irreversable side effects, known as brain death!
I've watched you post many times in the past and feel you have nothing to offer to this hobby but future bad press, please refrain from posting to me.

ff

Just to set the record straight, I was under the impression the gentlemen that unfortuantly died from the Rhino Viper bite because it was quite a number of hours before they located the Antivenom. That was told my some of my buddies that live up that way. Oh, and the thing with the Black Mamba here in Florida, FL. Fish and Game came out and EVERYTHING passed inspection. He did absolutely nothing wrong. We do not need posts that say what if a black mamba gets loose and kills everyone. Its not gonna happen. The people that keep those snakes are very responsible and accidents due happen. I also respect what Bud has to say, due to his level of experience with many different hots. Just my 2 cents.

Joe

well there smarty pants,
looks like I will have to call your bluff boy.

Yes I had to fly up to wisconson to film a shoot with NAT GEO.
I milked a 7 foot jameson mamba dry and then injected all of
the venom.
Then immediaty ran a half mile and climbed a 50'tree .
showing no effect.
That was not good enough they won't show it.
Next is a big black mamba I am taking bids. so far not high enough.
so once again pphillps you are proved wrong.
I have been bit many hundreds of times by many species.
never had AV ever you fool.
you might think your right but in reality not to close.
keep trying to cause a change that wont come due to the fact that nobody cares what you say.
play with your puff adder haha
guys like you are all over dude
be somthing unique for a change.
not another sheep in the herd.
later you need some cheese with that whine
you lose again.
I hate gloating!
last transmission
bud

n/p

I thought your last post was the last post?
Anyway, did you leap over tall buildings too, stop a speeding train maybe?
Did you measure the 50' tree too, or are you just pulling that from the hole in your head too!
Anyway, your lack of true experience amazes me!!
You've been bitten hundreds of times by many different species???
Doesn't that make you stop and wonder...Gee, maybe I'm not very good at this?
NAT. GEO. filmed you doing it huh, yet they won't air it? hmmm maybe cause you didn't do it???? maybe cause they wouldn't give you the time of day???
Big Black Mamba... Jameson's mamba, not much different in outcome. Why not try it.... that would be great, Maybe use your local t.v. station, it'll get picked up by AP press, and then maybe you will get your animals confiscated too! Now that would be a bonus, get those poor animals somewhere where they won't be manhandled. If you've been bitten that many times, just think of how many snakes die under your care when you try to pick them up and extract, because you are obviously not any good at what you do.
It also amazes me that people actually listen to you because of your "experience" with many species. That's not experience thats lack of it. Just because you purchase a snake and maintain it for a time does not mean experience. Unfortunately, I hope you are the only venomous keeper in your area and they do make it illegal, because it is people like you that should not own snakes, you sir are not qualified!
As for the people that think 'ol Bud knows what he is talking about, go back and watch the movie Cheech and Chong, this is what this man is portraying us all as! Pretty embarassing!
It's just like a carpenter who smacks his thumb with a hammer, instead of taking aspirin to dull the pain in case he does it again. He simply moves his thumb so he doesn't smack it again.
Common sense, intelligence or is it "experience"? you decide.
Anxiously awaiting the post you said you won't post!
Later my friend.

You are the unknown one I have over 30 years exp.
check your facts once again wrong.
You ran your mouth I called your bluff you lost its simple as your arguments.
There are many people who have seen the great love I have for my snakes. And would bet I spend more than you would in upkeep.
do you own your own snake lab or do you keep snakes in your house you sound like a trailer type?
Also there is many people who have seen these bites as they happened.
Its no big deal to get bit when your like me no sweat.
Just cause you are left out of the mainstream are you feeling neglected?
I handle many snakes and work for importers since they know I dont die when bitten its common to unload and treat 500 per day.
Over a thirty year period I have shown no need for antivenom at all.I have av at hand.
Even a four foot mojave or big mamba or a death adder has little to no effect on me it takes many years of research to get to my level.
Since you can say anything here and get away with it.
with no facts to back any of it.
I have seen your kind run the pie hole and then dissapear
when they find out the truth about me ha ha your next.
If they make hots illegal It would be simple to move.
go cry some place else its not against the law to get bit fool. inspect thyself

bud

I know I am not going to win this stupid chat with you, because you behave like a small playground bully. I am not the newcomer, I have been around for a number of years. I find no need to brag anything. I work with 282 species of reptiles daily, I have never been bitten. I have no need to prove myself, but know well that I am no NOOB and tire very quickly of all of your claims.
You call what you do "research" I didn't even think you that stupid, there is no research in what you do.
Your like a 10 year old bully, so the best way to deal with a bully is to call him out. I'm calling you out.
Now lets see some proof... anything, who are the importers you work for, Lets see some medical reports on your bites, lets see some home video of your bites, Lets see some published "research" Lets talk to your doctor,lets see someone with credentials account for your big talk, lets see some bloodwork for your supposed immunities, lets call the Nat. Geo. and talk with them about your claim, lets see anything little man. Anything!! What do ya got.... besides a large mouth and empty head!
If you actually do all this, it's a simple matter to show the rest of us. If you don't show us what ya got then shut up, so I can enjoy these little forums.
If you have no proof than I win Mr. Budman. Until we see some proof, You don't even exist!

You started this whole discussion thread by basically lecturing the rest of us on how public opinion can be swayed by words posted on this board. Now you and Harold are in the throws of a major urinating contest over whether he has immunity or not... I've seen the bite photos, and I believe him. I just wonder how one man (presumably you) can work with "282 species" of reptiles and keep up. You mock one participant for being "superman" without proof, and yet you toss around this 282 species figure as if the remainder of the forum is supposed to fall down on the ground and worship your every word... yet you offer no proof....

Is that just a little bit of a double-standard or what?

Oh, it would lend a little credibility to your wors if you took the time to identify yourself too...

That's all.

Tom Townsend (who makes no claim to fame at all, thank you very much)
-----
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

I grow tired of having to prove myself every time a new guys runs his mouth but proving this is easy when its the truth.
ok! now we are getting someware this happens a lot.
mstt was sceptical also just like you now she has seen for herself.[email her]
even russ anderson has been over and witnessed it. [call him]
bryan fry came to my place from down under I injected freely durissis mojave ect. he said if a black mamba get me and I live we will talk then [no av].[ email him]
so I did a jameson [jamesons are weak]for national GEO in wisconsin at tim freids place[great lakes venom lab] cameras and docs and the whole 9 yards.[email him]
as to wholesalers I dont want to name them but here is a clue Florida central figure it out [call them]
now A black is all thats left here you go for your proof.
I can milk a black and inject 10 units raw fresh venom thats 3.3mg dw per unit with no effects so i figure My limit is over double that.
some polylepis I can let bite me now but those are not big 10 footers plus.
milked mambas give more venom than a defensive bite.
so thats why they are milked then you see a visible amount.
If you dont think it took a lot of time money and equipment
to do all this then you miss the point. I studied most venoms the hard way milking drying milligrams from snake to snake day to day wound to wound till I found the method that works.

you want to come see person to person even my enemys are welcome since they all become my friend after the facts are known.
This is not any game this is very serious, using extracted
antibodies from lower life forms is primitive to say the least. human antibodies are better period.
I am not a fingerless hot herper they are all there.
so have one of your friends that are near to saint pete florida meet me and they will be your eyes.
or be my guest see for your self?
pics or phone calls might sound good but
seeing for your self is better.
its hard to deal with sceptics that attack verbaly
so that is why you think you were being treated like a school kid. you dished it out like that so I returned it so.
your posts were child like rants.
so yes it did seem like a schoolyard bully thats what you wanted.
oh well accept my terms lets get this over with.

I am interested in venom research/toxinology, and my question is not meant to minimize your achievements by any means. I would like to ask though, what is your purpose in taking such great risks?
M.A.

Simple to survive.
without antivenom.
The accidental bite.

this urination contest, I am willing to offer my services in an effort to mitigate it. I live in St Pete and am most certainly willing to observe whatever demonstration might be deemed reasonable and agreeable to the urinating parties.

In fairness, Bud and I e-mailed briefly after the Mamba bite incident but that was the sole focus of the e-mail's. I don't believe I have met him in person and certainly know no more about him than anyone else on this forum.

Standing by...
Jeff Nichols

Hey Jeff...

Now all we need is a volunteer to scope out the 282 species the other contestant keeps crowing about and a panel of judges to see who the winner will be LOL...

Personally, I have no doubt that our famous Budman can shoot up a couple of cc's of Mamba juice without any visible effect. He and Tim F. have been doing this sort of thing for a while and if I am correct, "Bud" has been performing the SI "thing" for a long time... I recall pictures of venom in the eyes, bit marks from a mojave, and several other not-so-nice-to-think-of scenerios that would have sent a non-immune person to the morgue....

Somehow I doubt our Mr. Phillips, or whatever his name is would accept your word for anything either....

Tom
>>this urination contest, I am willing to offer my services in an effort to mitigate it.
-----
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

I think he made a type o on that species number.

yes its normal for me to do this so it will go down as you stated. but I wont try 2 cc yikes a simple 7 foot black will suffice for this.
2cc wet would be over 660mgs roughly 66 lethal doses.
a big one might dump 100 mgsdwt 10 lethal doses - 1 or 2
I heard a good one lately that a person bit had 90 lethal doses
in his blood totaly impossible from one snake average size.
later
bud

I realy think he will dissapear now his odds of losing are getting greater and greater.
I have never met you.
so you will be a good impartial observer.
you understand the deal I show you you report.
Its no great feat so it wont take to much of our time.
stand by for mr phillps approval.
saturday sounds best for me.
bud

Shall we wait to see what the other party has to say? I feel like a second in a duel. Not that I mind, it interests me more than anybody will ever know. I'm prepared to take pix and film to validate or invalidate the contention. This Saturday is bad for me. I'd prefer Monday, or later . Weekend after next perhaps?

Regards,
J.

Bill haast has been doing this since 1948. Take a look http://www.cobras.org/article.htm

Why don't you try to take a bite from a large puff adder or gaboon viper and see what happens.

I am kinda choosey of my snakes no weak ones they have to be hot enough to kill in 15mg or less.
a puff or gabby first is not a top contender it takes a 100 mgs to kill they wont make it to the race deadly they are.
but to feed you thirst I have already been bit several times by big eastern diamond backs 5 feet they are in the same
ranking 100 mg to kill a human.
I was not impressed did not even scare me..
so I would go for a tiger snake or taipan.
already got bit by a death adder not impressive except for the ANAphalaxis.

so get me a tigersnake I will try it

but no weak venoms they realy are well bla.
I messed with them YEARS ago before the gray hair.
Boring.
bud

bud, venom toxicity of gaboons may not compare with black mambas, but their venom yeilds are huge 4 to 7ml(450-600mg).I also know that most self stickers have very little resistance against these venoms but have a high resitance against snakes that have mainly neurotoxins in their venom. That's why you will never see a self sticker take a full bite from a gaboon or puff adder.

Please don't try to take a full bite from a gaboon or puff adder to impress me. I would not like to see a fellow herp die or be serious injured.

As for the Natl Geo shoot, I was there. In regard to immunity, Budman is the real deal. Where's YOUR proof?
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

hello Bill,
I did not have the time to mention all the people but
bill filmed the event also and is a very honest repectable person. I as not to impressed with the way nat geo followed through with the event telling us great shot! then when there was no death or hospital stay it lost its shock value.
but the fact is we still did it.
also the other person did monacle venom 50 mgs ouch!
next time will be much different they will PAY to risk our lives no waver just GREEN.
pphilip is welcomed to visitany time

ps bill when are you going to make it down south
Its nice down here when you guys are frozen.
later and muco gracias m8
bud

SORRY...WITH ALL THE TESTOSTERONE MILLING ABOUT...I JUST COULDN'T RESIST...............FRANK

he is bad lol.
That would be a good name for a snake.

Call me Mr. inspiration! (though my wife thought of it...)

Bud is telling the truth. I do not agree with everything he says or does, but he is not exaggerating when he states that he has injected very large quantities of freshly milked venom into his body and taken multiple bites from many venomous snake species with no antivenom and minimal effects. I have seen him do these things.

Actually a large number of people have seen him do these things, because he isn't a bit shy about doing them in front of people! He will undoubtedly do them in front of you too, if you ever decide to take a visit. I suspect that every herper within driving distance of this fellow has been treated to an eyeful of him shooting up medically inadvisable quantities of venom into his arms, or freehandling mambas and Mojaves and barely noticing it when he gets nibbled on for his trouble.

Sure, he writes like a dyslexic grade schooler, which is why I thought he was full of it when I first ran into him on the forums a few years back. But writing style or not, he isn't exaggerating in the least when he talks about the things he does with venom. Go see for yourself if you like; everybody else has.

Bud takes darn good care of his snakes. He's one of the few people to whom I'll happily give some of my babies to raise, because I know I can come back to visit in six months or a year and see them grown up huge and sleek and healthy. He's done a great job raising up the snakes in his care, even when they started out looking pretty awful from the importer's. I have a very, very short list of people to whom I am willing to give or sell snakes, but Bud's care and husbandry is really top notch and he's definitely on it.

My guess as to why he gets bitten so often is that he is very gentle in handling them and does not use forceful restraint. I have no quibbles with his handling style and consider it to be quite humane and minimally stressful for the animals.

I cannot recommend that other people should emulate Bud; I think that the quantities he self-injects are medically inadvisable and likely to have undesirable side effects. But what he does certainly does not appear to be harmful to his snakes. As Bud is a mentally competent adult he has every right to conduct extreme medical experiments with his own immune system if he chooses.

Wow,

High praise. I'm a lurker but you can pick up respect from those that post. If you pay attention. Knew that Bud was in the trenches and doing well, Didn't know MsTT was there by his side.

Regards,
J.

lets go on to another thread this is getting old.
I think you all will agree.

You know you are right Budman. I don't know you...But I have noted your defenders...and corresponded with one of them about you. One is measured by one's friends and yours stand by you. I have also directly corresponded with taphillip and off this forum have found him to be reasonable and actually making some good points....This has gone on for too long...and I'm seeing two nice guys showing their worst sides in this comedy. You are two sides of the same coin...Best to leave it at that.
Frank

Awww,

Does this mean I don't get to meet and observe the Budman at work??

Regards,
J.

you are still welcome if you want to come by.
are you a venomous keeper?
bud

you are still welcome if you want to come by.
are you a venomous keeper?
bud

Not after moving to the great state of Florida. Don't have the documented hours. Not to say that I think Fl laws are out of line, probably the best in these United States. My handling experience has pretty much been limited to native venomous animals. I like 'em all, but I won't knowingly break the law.

Regards,
J.

you gotta be kidding me...do realy expect us to belive that if you get bitten by a black mamba or other snake with a strong toxicity it will have no affect on you..you may have built up a slight immunity from all your stupid mistakes but lets get back to reality...your just another person who probly keeps hots illegaly because they think its COOL to be around the constant danger...your pathetic and if it were up to me i would have you hanged

Isn't there a few posts about you ripping people off in the venomousreptiles.org forums? You should take a look at yourself before you go throwing stones at someone who has mad SIGNIFICANT contributions to the herp community.

you are b!tching out someone (who is licensed in the state of Fl) about probably keeping snakes illegally, when it's blatantly obvious you don't have any permits. Lets face it, if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question about permits.

Yes, Bud is properly licensed and inspected by the State of Florida. I've seen his license and he's seen mine, because we've swapped snakes around and that's part of the legally required protocol.

Regarding the fireman in Dayton Ohio who was bitten by his 12 year captive nasicornis...
It was not anaphylaxis to the venom, it was the fact that one fang hung up INSIDE a vein in the back of his hand as he replaced a waterbowl into the neodesha, so an entire venom gland was dumped intravenously......no need to explain why he went down so fast if you understand the nature of the venom...the other fang deposited sub-q.....
Just clarifying that particular point to anyone who was interested

Oh my goodness... he was changing the water with his hands? With the snake in the cage?
>_<
Perhaps this was a case of someone getting a little too complacent. Very sad, because I know the guy was experienced.

Regarding the fireman in Dayton Ohio who was bitten by his 12 year captive nasicornis...
It was not anaphylaxis to the venom, it was the fact that one fang hung up INSIDE a vein in the back of his hand as he replaced a waterbowl into the neodesha, so an entire venom gland was dumped intravenously......no need to explain why he went down so fast if you understand the nature of the venom...the other fang deposited sub-q.....
Just clarifying that particular point to anyone who was interested

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have at least some sort of access to av, what I'm saying is, there is no such thing as good press when it comes to papers. Bites are going to happen, whether or not he had the av had NOTHING to do with bad publicity, reporters and papers do a great job of that. The paper would have added something to the story, just like they always do, to make the story more exciting. I agree with the statement you made about certain administration of av when not necessary, personally, I don't feel that anyone besides a doctor is qualified enough to make the decision of whether or not to administer av. Even some doctors are debatable, but I don't feel an EMT should be giving av, I don't know if this actually happens, but I heard it has.
You also have to take into consideration that some physicians don't want to be a sponsor for av, or want anything to do with administering an experimental drug, so it's not that easy for some people to acquire av. If it were more accessible (even if price wasn't a concern), I think more people would have it. Even if you dropped the prices of everything to the price of Costa Rican Polyvelent ($25), it would still be a pain to acquire. Certain doctors want nothing to do with it, and the recent shortages of Cro-fab and CRP make it difficult to obtain.

I agree totally with your statement. Antivenom is a very good idea, but I also think the person owning it should be well schooled on how to use it. We have all heard stories of the harm it can do if it is not administered properly or when it is not needed. The access is very limited, even more limited in places that some of us live. I think that it really doesn't do any good for anyone to lecture us on having antivenom, we do what we do and we accept the possibility of what can happen if we make a mistake. I think this guy's emphasis should be more on the steps we take after a bite such as making sure the snake is contained afterwords,cages locked, precautions taken for others that are left to deal with the snakes,ect. I personally think that if I get nailed and there is no antivenom available, what happens happens, as long as it is happening to me and not putting anyone else at risk. I am sure that all of us would love to have antivenom, but I don't think that our right to own these wonderful creatures and our rights to contribute with our learnings and experience should be forfeited because it is not accessible to us. When it is readily available, I am sure we all will have it, but for now, people like us here in the real world we still have the right to work with these creatures. How many people discover new husbandry techniques and breed some of these animals that don't have antivenom? I am guessing quite a few.
Just my ramblings,
Kevin

the man did nothing wrong, if he did, Florida wouldn't have given him his license in the first place. It's easy for someone that works in a lab or zoo to say that every hot keeper should have av, they have the means to acquire it much easier than a normal hobbyist. Personally, I think a nice permit system with a fee is the way to go. Take the money from the fee, and establish some sort of av bank, and have some doctors that know the general bite protocol's run it. I know it sounds crazy, but without a doctor willing to sign off on the forms, some will never be able to acquire av.

One place locally with a majority of the antivenom is an excellent idea. That way the cost is way less, since everyone doesn't have to waste their own personal supply. How much of AV is going to get used and how much is going to go to waste if everyone was required to own it? I think you can notice that this gentlemen has yet to respond to any of our recent posts, guess he couldn't stand the reality of it all.
Kevin

One place locally with a majority of the antivenom is an excellent idea. That way the cost is way less, since everyone doesn't have to waste their own personal supply. How much of AV is going to get used and how much is going to go to waste if everyone was required to own it? I think you can notice that this gentlemen has yet to respond to any of our recent posts, guess he couldn't stand the reality of it all.
Kevin

He hasn't really responded to much of anything.

lecturing the people that should purchase antivenom? Why don't you go to the source and lecture the pharmacists for not carrying the antivenoms in more areas, or better yet, lecture the companies that produce the AV and ask such a great price for it? I am sure if we could all afford it and it was readily accessible, most of us would have it stocked at all times. But the problem is, some of us DO live in the real world and don't have antivenom available where we live and cost really is a matter, but not as big as the first problem. So what you are saying is 80% of the people studying and learning about these creatures for everyone's benefit, don't have the right to work with these animals? If that happened, how many of these species do you think would go extinct without anyone ever learning anything about them, let alone breeding them? Like I stated below, I am sure that alot of these people we see breeding and learning about these animals for the first time, probably don't have antivenom available. What do you think, that noone can possibly contribute to this hobby unless they own AV???? But, I will state once again, I do think that people should have the proper precautions and plan on what to do after the bite to make sure the snake doesn't put anyone else at risk besides the owner. I do think that the gentlemen that was bitten by the mamba in florida was a shining example of exactly the plan I am referring to. NOONE ELSE WAS HARMED AND THE SNAKE WAS PROPERLY CONTAINED BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL. The owner took the chance and paid the price, but that was his decision and it was his right to work with a mamba without owning antivenom(not sure if he did have it or not),but he did absolutely nothing wrong and I am sure he is being charged for the AV. So what is truly your problem?
Kevin