Reptile & Amphibian Forums

September 1, 2009
Contacts: (Inland issues) Henry Cabbage, 850-488-8843
(Marine issues) Lee Schlesinger, 850-487-0554

* Agenda (with links to background reports)

The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission will meet at the Mission Inn in Howey-in-the-Hills Sept. 9-11. The meeting is open to the public at 10400 County Road 48. It will convene at 8:30 a.m. all three days.

The Sept. 9 (Wednesday) agenda will focus on inland issues, including discussion of a proposed rule to allow falconers to hunt with peregrine falcons. The proposal may be on the agenda for final approval in December if Commissioners direct FWC staff to proceed with developing it. Federal regulations would limit the program to five or fewer peregrines per year in Florida.

Another proposed rule on the Sept. 9 agenda would solidify an existing executive order allowing licensed hunters to kill nonnative reptiles of concern in select South Florida wildlife management areas. The rule will be up for final approval in December. As part of an overall review of existing regulatory measures for reptiles of concern, the Commission will be reviewing proposed legislation from Sen. Lee Constantine and others to enhance the FWC's efforts to regulate captive wildlife in Florida.

n/p

I didn't get to the meeting, but here's an update from the FWC. I believe the consensus is to keep the ROC permit in place as is while scientific evidence is gathered. Hunting feral ROC is not only allowed, but encouraged.

Pythons first appeared in South Florida nearly two decades ago, and they now take center stage as efforts to control their proliferation in the Everglades continue by wildlife managers at both the federal and state levels. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) continues to search for solutions for controlling the further invasion of this exotic species, as well as all reptiles of concern in Florida.

On Wednesday at the FWC meeting in Howey-in-the-Hills, staff presented an update on the reptile of concern programs to date, offered suggestions for further management measures, and discussed potential legislation that could possibly affect the management and enforcement of reptile of concern policies.

After listening to approximately 20 speakers address the issues regarding Burmese pythons and reptiles of concern, the Commission approved a draft rule that codifies an Executive Order, effective Aug. 29, allowing hunters to take pythons in the course of hunting game species in Florida.

Commissioners directed staff to bring back a final rule at the December meeting in Clewiston.
They also asked Col. Julie Jones, the FWC's director of law enforcement, to open rulemaking and look at the science behind personal pet ownership and breeding and sale by Florida's reptile industry. Commissioners asked Jones to bring back a wide range of options, with complete flexibility, for the Commission to consider.

The Commission heard from the reptile industry and conservation groups before taking the vote.

"Let's find out everything we can about this problem," said Commissioner Ron Bergeron. "Then we can move forward diligently."

Tim Breault, the FWC's director of the Division of Habitat and Species, began the presentations by addressing the FWC's efforts thus far to control the spread of Burmese pythons in South Florida. He also spoke about the future of pythons in Florida.

"It's natural to have a spike in the population of a nonnative species, and I think right now we're seeing the explosive stage," Breault said. "As we continue to implement control measures, our large native species will figure out what to do eventually; I am hopeful once that happens that Florida's native wildlife will take control."

Jackie Fauls, the FWC's director of Legislative Affairs, provided the Commission an overview of the possible state legislation, including proposed bills by Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs; Rep. Darren Soto, D-Orlando; and Rep. Ralph Poppell, R-Titusville, that would provide stricter licensing requirements and increase penalties and fines for violating licensing requirements and for releasing nonnative animals in the wild.

Sen. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood, also proposes a ban on pet ownership of reptiles of concern.
Jones asked the Commission to allow staff to open rulemaking for reptiles of concern and other nonnatives to strengthen regulatory controls.

"Staff understands the python issue and wants to proactively develop solutions for the future," Jones said. "Pythons are a sign of a much bigger issue, and we want to apply all the new rules and regulations to all nonnative species in Florida."

Chairman Rodney Barreto said science and facts must guide decision-making on this issue as answers are sought for a solution.

"There's a huge battle cry for an all-out ban, but it is uncharacteristic of this agency to have knee-jerk reactions," Barreto said. "Let's put everything out on the table and encourage the industry to keep working with us to find the answers."

Here are the minutes from our Sept meeting of the Central FL Herp meeting pertaining to CFHS President Shawn Heflick's first hand accounts of Burms in the Everglades. I have permission from the secretary to reprint them in order to educate people. I hope it is OK to post them here to get the word out. The work that Shawn Heflick has been doing is quite interesting.

Our President, Shawn Heflick, announced that the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) is planning an "amnesty day" event in Central Florida & wants to hear from Reptile of Concern (ROC) permit holders as to what species of ROC & how many they are willing to take from this event: Indian or Burmese Python (Python molaras), Reticulated Python (Python retivulatus), African Rock Python (Python sebae), Amethystine or Scrub Python (Molaria amethystinus), Green Anaconda (Eunectes mainus) and Nile Monitor Lizards (Varanus niloticus) are the ROC's in FL. Shawn will let me know when the Amnesty Day is scheduled & I will follow up with you with an email update.

Group discussion about the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) led by Shawn...this non-profit organization is generating funds to fight people that keep reptiles & amphibians (& other animals people keep, as well). HSUS is loosely affilitated with the Defenders of Wildlife, Animals Liberation Front, etc...other groups that would like to end reptiles & amphibians in the pet trade.

The Secretary of State maintains a database of charitable organizations that solicit funds & has records of how their money is spent...it is recommended that you check this out before supporting them with your dollars. Many spend the lions share of funds on fundraising & administration & very little on actual programs.

There are no guidelines as to how the money can be spent...as long as it is legal.

Program: Update on Burmese Python eradication program with FWC in the FL
Everglades:

2 sides to the controversy: One side says that the Burmese Python invasion in the FL Everglades is due to pet releases...Another side says it was due to 1992's Hurricane Andrew.

Wanting to get everyone on the same page...we look to the facts, not the sensational hype the media is promoting to sell stories:

Burmese Pythons (BP's) have been studied in the Everglades and there is no genetic variability between those found there...suggesting that they came from 1 founder stock. There are no albinos, no greens, no granites, or other color / pattern morphs / genetic mutations. Burmese Pythons from the pet trade in Florida come from 4 countries...the BP invasion in the Everglades could not be pet released without any genetic variability. Albinos could not survive in the Everglades in any case.

The epicenter of the BP outbreak is around the mouth of the Everglades National Park (ENP) at an area called Frog Pond which is South of Florida City and in spitting distance from Homestead...where Hurricane Andrew tore through at his mightiest in 1992.

If you look at the data / facts about BP's in the Everglades from a Biologist's viewpoint...it is obvious that this is not a problem due to pet releases, but due to damage from Hurricane Andrew.

There is a study by USGS & the South Florida Water Management District that shows that BP's may spread from Florida all the way to Maryland & to California as they expand their range. They used information about Ceylonese Pythons as a basis for the study...which occur at higher elevations & different geographic ranges than the Burmese Python. The promoters of this study didn't think that the reptile industry would mount a campaign to protect themselves. But it is also their colleagues & other scientists that are questioning this pet disposal of Burmese Pythons in the Everglades & potential range expansion promotion.

How they came to 100,000 number of BP's in Everglades at present time...they used an agricultural area in Everglades that is infested with rodents & BP's right outside Homestead & Florida City (BP outbreak
epicenter) that has a large land mass with no development & is insulated / surrounded by ENP and large private landholdings and then extrapolated the data from this area to the greater area of all the Everglades. They took terrestrial location to extrapolate...when in actuality the greater everglades has only approx. 3 % terrestrial habitat. Horrific science came up with the 100,000 BP estimate. Shawn thinks no more than 10,000 BP's at present.

Shawn says they are out there breeding...he has recently seen hatchlings that were fresh with the umbilical evidence visible.

He Michael Cole & Greg Graziani were only allowed to hunt on State lands. They only are finding empty guts of BP's or rats in stomach contents. BP's will eat road kill...did BP's really kill bobcats, etc?
Or are they cleaning ditches of road kill?

BP & Alligator wrestle to death photo that was taken in Everglades & publicized so heavily some years ago...Shawn says that the alligator that "burst" from the snake's stomach had it's skull crushed...he believes by an airboat & thinks the snake ate the gator after the gator was dead...the snake's neck & head were never found...Shawn believes that another gator came & ate the snakes head & that is the action that the photographer saw...& that this gator swam away underwater & the other gator was released from the snake's belly during the tussle.

For every instance of a BP photo of an alligator being eaten in the Everglades...there are dozens of pictures of alligators eating BP's.

There may not be any natural predators of BP's (from SE Asia) in Florida, but there are plenty of Florida predators of BP's...including:
herons, storks, snapping & big soft-shell turtles, ospreys, owls, raccoons, fire ants, etc...

Political agenda of FL Senator Bill Nelson & possible Senator...Governor Charlie Crist...is fear mongering hype.

Shawn spoke with Nelson's chief of staff...who didn't know the facts (scary)...but he did listen to Shawn, Mike & Greg.

Shawn thinks we should be willing to give up the importation of ROC's...to show that we are giving up something to meet them in the middle...especially since the tragic death of the 2 year old Central FL girl with the BP accused for the suffocation. More on that...apparently it was the mother's snake...they lied to police originally. They had it in a bag with a blanket tied over the enclosure lid...no ROC license & the snake had been loose before the tragedy...and it was not well fed.

Wild populations of BP have nothing to do with captive animals like the one involved with this tragedy. Wild BP's will freeze when approached (sensing the vibrations of the large animal approaching), they flick their tongues & may take a defensive stance against the giant human leering above them they believe to be a predator...or they may flee quickly as they do not want to be eaten.

Shawn was out with BBC when he caught a yearling BP on Aerojet Rd. He put the car in park told the interviewer what the snake would do (see last paragraph)...the yearling gave Shawn a glancing blow to his knee which he hid from the camera...the BBC rep. questioned Shawn about his knee & he moved his other hand over the knee...he wanted to get the message to the BBC that BP's are not a public safety issue in FL wildlands...nor is their one in the BP's home ranges.

You can always get a BP to bite you & hold on if you scent yourself with rabbits (not recommended...he cited a BP enthusiast that held a dead rabbit under his chin & opened the BP enclosure to feed the animal...apparently the caregiver died as he went for the rabbit too quickly).

BP incidents with humans are ALWAYS the keepers fault! BP's are not a public safety issue.

Could be an OSHA issue, however.

BP Bullet Points:

Not a Public Safety Issue.

Not going to go away overnight, if ever (BP issue).

Not 100,000 BP's in FL Everglades.

Not pet release problem (hurricane evidence is incontrovertible).

We have an obligation to show up & fight the fight. FWC is on our side...if there are full bans, FWC has no job.

Example: Shawn & Greg Graziani keep crocodilians & the FWC sent them new regulations about keeping them (with no experience keepers writing the regulations). Shawn & Greg rewrote regulations from the expericed viewpoints they acquired & won over FWC...they instituted their recommendations without question.

That would never have happened 15 years ago.

Now that reptile keepers have formed a good relationship with the FWC, we need to do the same with the politicians & media.

Gov. Charlie Crist wants to ban all reptile keeping in FL...as he is looking for a Senate seat.

We need to call politicians & make a better relationship & remind them that we vote.

Now eradicating BP's only on State lands...working with the National Park System to work on eradication in ENP. National Park system should be getting pressure. Senator Nelson & potential Senator Crist may work on funding the BP eradication issue.

Told chief of staff that the Senator has thousands of voting constituents that keep reptiles in FL.

Our hobby / job with reptiles that we are passionate about is under threat!

Daycare Center hoax in New Port Richey...guy put BP nearby for media hype...under investigation by FWC.

BP eradication hunts...collect data with GPS locations to support or negate GSPS population information (100,000 suspected pop. BP's in Everglades).

Shawn can take up to 5 visitors on BP eradication hunt on State lands...he also sees Crayfish snakes & saw the prettiest baby Cottonmouth he had ever seen. It's an all night adventure...he got home at 6:30 after the last one. Contact him if you are interested in joining a future hunt.

In KY...no exotic pets are allowed now.

Hitting heavy in OH, AR, Maryland & FL...$ with lobbiests in Washington D.C. Come out of woodwork when people are emotional like the 2 year old's death.

If licensed with FWC you are in public limelight...due to public records...FL Sunshine Law.

American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) euthanizing snakes...says to use blunt object & bludgeon before severing spine. Shawn prefers more humane method of pithing brain & severing spine from head with pocket knife (nothing the media can get sensational pictures about).

Shawn warns us to tread lightly with the media. They can ruin your life...even if what they say is misconstrued...they can target you.

End of Program.

Interesting, thanks for the info. One of the issues you mentioned relates directly to the thread above. From the article cited in that thread:

--------
"We'll never really know how Burmese pythons established themselves in the Everglades," Gibbons said in a phone interview Monday. "Some people think pet owners who released pythons into the wild were the cause, while others think the snakes were accidentally released when Hurricane Andrew hit the state in the 1990s. Either way, we'll never be able to tell because current populations are so genetically diverse."
---------

I've only seen one DNA study, and it seems to contradict Mr. Gibbons statements. And from the meeting minutes you just posted:

"Burmese Pythons (BP's) have been studied in the Everglades and there is no genetic variability between those found there...suggesting that they came from 1 founder stock. There are no albinos, no greens, no granites, or other color / pattern morphs / genetic mutations. Burmese Pythons from the pet trade in Florida come from 4 countries...the BP invasion in the Everglades could not be pet released without any genetic variability. Albinos could not survive in the Everglades in any case. "

So what gives? Did Dr. Gibbons just make that up about the Everglades burms being so "genetically diverse?" Or am I misunderstanding something?

Because Gibbons wants grant money????

And wth are Scrubs included in this mess, anyway. Has anyone EVER found one loose???

>>Because Gibbons wants grant money????
>>
>>And wth are Scrubs included in this mess, anyway. Has anyone EVER found one loose???

No doubt about the grant money, but I'm trying to keep my personal opinion to myself at this point. I sent an email to Dr. Gibbons just to see if he would provide an explanation. If he is just making that up out of thin air, though, this is just another example of how corrupt things are. Some of these guys get money and job security from lying. If you or I did that at our jobs, we'd get fired. It's sickening.

Scrubs? I think your first question answered that as well.

Thanks for the update. I thought the FWC always seemed to be a lot more rational, and they seem to be willing to listen. Crist needs to be reminded over and over again that the reptile industry can vote, and will put up a major crusade to defeat him next time. We ARE serious.

"Hitting heavy in OH, AR, Maryland & FL...$ with lobbiests in Washington D.C. Come out of woodwork when people are emotional like the 2 year old's death."

Could you further explain this sentence? I don't understand from it which side the money is on.

I *think* it refers to the amount of money heavily invested into lobbyists in those states by anti-exotic ownership groups. They hit when the issue is emotional, like when the 2yo died, or the pet store owner was attacked (remember that one?), or when an exotic case comes to the surface.

Oh, ok. There are some pretty heavy hitters with resources on our side, also. I'm in Md. so I was curious.