Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is a small group of newly hatched northern pines. The group is separated by sex (2.3). They are of Burlington Co. locality according to the previous keeper, but who really knows, right? Who cares...they are nice classic northerns and that's all I care about. Enjoy.






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--Brian Scott

Nice hatchlings. From your group or new purchase?

BTW, all Northerns are from NJ stock, hahahah

LOLO...I know, right!
I have NJ stock, I have NJ stock too!! No, I have NJ stock.....blah, blah, blah......we all have NJ stock I guess. Now Phil Peak's Tennessee stock is where it's at IMHO. What I would give for those wild adults...yikes!!

These are hatchlings from my "Jersey" adults hatched out this week by yours truly
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--Brian Scott

Look good nothing like hatchling Northerns.
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2.4 Black Pines
.1 Albino Northen Pine
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Red Bulls
1. Hypo Bull
1.1 D. Deppei

Rich there is some NC blood floating around.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, they are out there but unfortunately most that have them do not know what they have.

Curious to know what other locales that some may have?

Rich,
I used to work with NC animals that originated from the Riverbanks Zoo in SC. Tony is correct, they are out there, but few know what they have, and many have been mixed with Jersey blood. I believe anyone who has kept Northerns from the 'southern clade' along with the 'northern clade' for any length of time can tell the subtle but obvious differences. Scale counts tend to be higher in the southern clade, as well as a somewhat higher canthal ridge that is seen with mugitis. I wonder why there aren't more people working with Northerns from the upper counties of S.C., since they are still legal to obtain from there. I wish I had not sold them, I had 1.1 yellow/gold and black, as well as .1 black and pure white one with coal-black eyes that Bart Bruno affectionately coined the "Carolina Snow-Ball" morph. These originated from Richmond Co. N.C. Hopefully someday they will show up again. Can you here me kicking myself in the butt for getting out of them? LOL..
Mike Collalto

how about I kick you

I'll then let you proceed to kick me back. Red Phase I will probably never again see the likes of. True Yellow/Black right from the "barrens". Yellows were being worked with by a local in the early 80's. I was heading out west for a few years. Figured they would always be around. Came back to the east coast and this individual was still producing them. Exceptional pines. I put it off a spell as I added many other herps. When I finally tried to find him I could not. To this day I have never come across anything of the likes of those pines. Brick red and black jumbos as well. Ahh, never mind, makes me sick even thinking about it LOL

I was familiar with the snow-ball line as well. Amazing how easily all these phases pretty much vanished from the herp scene. Whats that song, "If I knew now what I should have known then".

Take care, Rich Hebron

showed me some NPines that he was breeding. He was a NY transplant to the SW who had at one time worked as a herp keeper at the Stanton Island Zoo. I was not actively seeking NJ barrens animals in the sense that they are better or nicer looking, it just appealed to me that he had actually legally collected the founders from a very specific place. Although I am interested in the "disjunct population" aspect of these animals I would be keenly interested in keeping specific known locality NP from other parts of that ssp range. In other words is was not a "jump on the bandwagon gotta get Jersey barrens animals" sort of an acquisition. This blood line was not typically the classic sought after black and white phase nor were they particularly red. I have over time selected for reddish animals but my line and my original 1992 breeders are still alive and well and pure to the given locality.

I have always attempted to seek out locality animals because as a wildlife biologist it simply means more to me.

I realize that I am rambling and have lost my original train of thought so I will quit while ahead.

Oh yeah, yellow pines.....

This blood line has on several occasions spawned blk and wht individuals, banana yellow individual, as well as the reddish individuals.

What an incredibly diverse Genus! I had a friend from Iowa over a few days ago and when I pulled out a lineaticollis he exclaimed, "wow, the head shape on those really puts one in mind of the fox snake.

I have also noticed that peoples' interest change to the point that what you thought was a locality or phase, or morph that was here to stay might be impossible to find in 10 or 20 years. If you encounter something you really like.... hold on to it!

Back in 1972 some of us actually thought they would be around forever hence my previous post. Many of us were considered odd for even having thoughts of maintaining herps in captivity. There was such small interest in herps back then. Not as it has become today. We were not conditioned to think in such ways. Many of us would trade hatchlings and for the most part never thought about selling them. Our deli cups back then held potatoe salad, without aspen

In retrospect of course, it would have been nice if I did keep such herps for all those years. Personally though, I never was good at being a Monday morning quarterback. So I did naively believe they would not for the most part vanish from the scene. I ended up going the way of change riding a band wagon with new morphs and such. Phew, collection grew so large I lost what I originally enjoyed what it was all about for me. The beginning of it all.

I'm not a biologist in any way shape or form. I liked reading about and seeing herps in the wild. That was my start. I made the mistake of working down on Wall Street instead of what I should have been doing, focusing on nature.

The Staten Island Zoo did much work in the "barrens". I was a regular there(as a paying visitor). My first experience with live pinensakes (actually with any live snake) was at this Zoo in 1969. Books were it prior. I have stuck with it ever since.

I will say this though. I give much respect to those that did keep up with such populations for the purpose of protecting them and their range. If it was not for them I would not be able to still acquire today many of the herps I kept back then. Now these new pines will be with me until the end. Just hope I can "will" them to someone in my family after my passing who will have an interest in them

did you ever meet a fellow by the name of Robert Brandner at the zoo or out herping the barrens? He was the fellow I spoke of in my earlier post.....

He was one of the old timers of the Barrens.....

I remember back in the 60's the Philedelphia Reptile Exchange alwyas had New Jersey pinesnakes on the price list. Does anyone remember who owned that business? Also, I remember getting price lists from the Snake Farm in Laplace Lousisiana with LA pines ($50.00) and Copes milksnakes (25.00) on there lists. Now guys, that is getting old. About the only books available at the time was Ditmars "Snakes of the World" and Cliford Popes book, forgot it's name. About the only field guide at the time was Reptiles and Amphibians by Herbert S Zim. I use to look at the sfetch of the corn snake coiled on the porch with the rat and the sketch of the indigo and dream about having one each. It was with that little field guide that i convinced my cousin that he did not indeed catch a pine snake in sw Ohio, but a juvenile balck rat!! Now that is old!!!

Hank Molt owned the Reptile Exchange. LA Snake Farm though I only heard about them never dealt with them. Have no clue who was involved with that place.

Hey Dan, it timed out so my post ended up as a new thread above. I hate when that happens, at least this time a made a copy before hitting enter LOL

"Mack the carny owned the original Snake Farm in Laplace, La., which almost certainly had a brothel. "During Betsy a bunch of trees fell over fences, etc., allowing snakes out into the country side, which prompted the owners to go out and find them in the swamp".*

Mack opened the Texas location in 1967 to attract HemisFair Park-goers in 1968, when San Antonio hosted the World's Fair. Mellyn describes Mack's Snake Farm as a roadside carnival with nothing but snakes, a chimp and a possible whorehouse.

This infamous reputation traveled from Laplace to New Braunfels. Whether the rumor is true, Mellyn doesn't know - or won't tell me. Mack sold the Texas Snake Farm to Joe Treska, a former employee, in the mid-1970s, and Mellyn bought it from Treska in 1994".

Snake farm today:::

http://www.txroadrunners.com/images/pics/TxHillCountryBats2005/SnakeFarm/SnakeFarmEntrance.jpg

http://www.txroadrunners.com/images/pics/TxHillCountryBats2005/SnakeFarm/SnakeFarmOutdoorZoo.jpg

***Note here*** There are many instances of Animal importers, exporters and dealers losing snakes to the wild. A few of them deliberately, some accidently. Florida has had it happen a couple of times throughout history. You sometimes have to wonder what, if any, wild populations were eventually influenced/affected by these occurrences.

C.C. McClung established both the New Braunfels Snake Farm near San Antonio and the La Place Snake Farm near New Orleans. Decades ago he sold them to Joe Tesca and Dan Vicknair, respectively. The La Place Snake Farm was demolished at least 25 years ago. Joe Tesca is still alive but I believe the others have died.

While Mc Clung owned the two attractions, his daughter was bitten and succumbed to a King Cobra bite at the La Place location. Bill Haast was dispatched by navy jet to offer transfusions of his immunized blood, but was turned back over the Gulf of Mexico when news came that she had died.

I visited and dealt with both establishments and received many price lists from them over the years. I never saw Louisiana Pinesnakes listed, ever. Does somebody have one of these old price lists that features them, at any price?

In my old high school biology classroom in Mattoon, Illinois there was a vat containing "Fifty Non-poisonous Snakes." They came from a biological supplier in Norco, LA, and contained Green and Broad-banded Watersnakes, rat & kingsnakes, racers, etc., and three ruthveni! When Bob Young and I were researching our publications on Louisiana Pinesnakes (Vivarium & Chicago Herpetological Society), I contacted my old friend and teacher, Marianne Doyle. She was retired but looked into the matter for us. Unfortunately, they had all been disposed of with the passing of the years. None had collection data and the snakes were intended for dissection and general classroom activities.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

Terry, the lists that I received had them listed for $50.00, but unfortunatley I don't have those lists anymore. I don't know if they just had the snakes of LA listed or if they actually had them in stock. I do recall the broadbanded water snakes and western cottonmouths on it also. Weren't they also importers? The list I recieved from them had mammals and other animals as well. Terry, since you have lived in that area, do you remember Authur Jones and his shows, "Wild Cargo" There was also the Marlin Perkins shows sponsored by "Mutual of Ohmaha".

You mean the inventor of the Nautilus Machine? That was one wild dude. I heard so much about him before and after such success. He sure liked his exotics though.

Could start a new thread about this guy. Would be interesting

Yelp...that's him I think he retired in the Ocala area. He had more people bitten by venomous snakes on shows...I think he set them up...just kidding of course. Got my 1st boa constrictor from him when he came to Cincinnatti around 1958 or 9. He brought hundreds of Boas, anacondas and indigo's. As I understand it, when he went back to LA, he killed all of the animals rather then ship them back.

Dan

I thought he released them. Either way, not good!!!

Arthur Jones was quite a guy. Love airplanes, guns, giant rattlers and crocs, and giant breasts on women a third his age. No kidding! He owned the Gulf Coast Serpentarium in Slidell. LA. Billed as, "World's Largest assemblage of Poisonous Snakes." All along Hwy 90 were little signs and big billboards, reminding you that you were getting closer. I took a photo years ago of a friend holding a pile of kings and ratsnakes standing next to a shoulder-high road sign that simply read, "Thousands of Snakes!"

He sold the place to Gus White and it went from horrible to worse. Gus relocated in Collins, Mississippi and called it the Endangered Species Orphanage. Now it's the Collins Zoo. Gaudy day-glow pink painted fencing faces the highway and delapidated vehicals are growing out of the parking lot. Old trucks and vans that have been there for years. When he came to Mississippi he was raided by our wildlife department and USF&W. Not a classy situation by a long shot.

Over the years I became aquainted with both Marlin Perkins and Jim Fowler. We were not close friends but they were always cordial. Both remembered my name but then, Marlin Perkins had an uncanny knack for remembering everyone's name. Stan Brock lives up around Knoxville, TN and does humanitarion work for the homeless (humans). He was "Person of the Week" on one of the major network news shows a week or two back.

I remember this stuff but can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning!

Cheers,

TV

"guns, giant rattlers and crocs, and giant breasts on women a third his age"

Probably sounds good to most here, I can only relate to the giant rattlers on the latter though

"his daughter was bitten and succumbed to a King Cobra bite at the La Place location. Bill Haast was dispatched by navy jet to offer transfusions of his immunized blood, but was turned back over the Gulf of Mexico when news came that she had died".

That must have been difficult for the family. How soon after did he sell?

Unfortunately I did not. I think you brought him up to me several years back as well. Phone call I made, e-mail or previous post of same. There was, at the time, an individual I knew (G.M.)that I believe was familiar with him, as he had done much herping in this area as well.

...I bred NC N. Pines for a while in the late '80s into the eraly '90s until it became illegal to have them here in NC. Being an educator I received permission to keep my breeders which were from Richmond Co., found under the same peice of tin but at different times. However, I released them back where they were found. They were sporadiac breedrs and fertility was not good. I have some photos of them somewhere, the female was huge with brown rusty blotching on the rear part of the body and the male was a beautiful black and white snake. NC Pines can be extremily variable...I've seen some yellow bull snake looking ones to an almost jet black female from New Brunswick Co. that was given to me by Wayne Van Devender in an attempt to see if see would breed but she only produced slugs before dying. Below is an ad I had in the second issue of the Vivarium Magazine.

Scott John Reptiles

Scott,

How about the rusty-tan muddy-colored ones that look *just like* Louisiana pines?! Bob Young and I found three DORs over a sigle weekend in North Carolina. One was stark B&W but the other two were ruthveni in our eyes. Really weird. I told you about them and where we saw them

Cheers,

TV

Terry,
I remember you calling me before coming over on that trip....I too have seen very LA Pine looking Northerns and I have thought how easy it would be to pass them off as LA Pines. A friend of mine and his wife made a video called Snakes of the Carolinas and in it they have a photo of a beautiful yelow Bullsnake looking animal that I believe he found in Richmond Co.

Brian...doesn't matter where they come from....good looking animals.

Dan

Thanks Dan, I appreciate the kind words!!
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--Brian Scott

Very nice Brian, like that temporary housing set up too with the heavy water dish in the center. Congratulations!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Thanks Tom!
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--Brian Scott

I have hatched many Northern Pines and those hatchlings look GREAT. They are black, gray and white and look like they will turn out high contrast black and white. How about some photos of the parents?

Russ P.

great looking snake! You have to love a big confident pine!

My old male spends his days with the kids also...

Brian, great job on your first clutch of pines. The one is absolutely huge! Keep me posted on how they are all doing.

Brian should recognize this image as Bernd and he discovered her last Spring when we were herping in Jersey. (I managed two firsts in my life this year... sightings of wild northern and southern Pines!) Thanks Brian for all your help in the Piney woods.I hope we can do it again in the spring of 2010!

what a beauty........

NJ, man, I need to get back there. Nothing beats sightings like that. This is what it is all about, to me at least. Next post will be for pics of wild pine sightings

...more/bigger pics of that beast? ...and while we're there, how about the Florida Pine too? ...pretty please.

John,
Thank you!! I am very happy with the way they have turned out. The other clutch is still cooking away...this week I hope...and I will select the very best girl for your future stock as we discussed.
I miss hanging out with you guys here in the barrens. We had such an awesome time. That photo of the big girl is great. What a beast she was...hopfully her eggs all hatched and are doing good. Remember, Zap said she was gravid!
Anyway, you my friend have had quite a year. I myself am looking at Louisiana in the spring...fingers crossed.
Cheers from the barrens,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

Nice pics of a very nice pine. Excellent.

Thanks Russ!
You snakes (and daughters) are beautiful, too!! I snapped some new photos of a few of my adults and I will post them up later.
Cheers--Brian
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--Brian Scott

Awesome shots of smoking Burlington northerns!
Makes me want more!!!!

Thanks for sharing!
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Genesis 1:1