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I have two years of thayeri production under my belt and hopefully many more to go. So far I'm a little confused by my results.

Example:
2008
MSP x MSP - I got all MSP
MSP x MSP - I got all MSP
Leonis x Leonis - I got both Leonis and MSP

2009
Leonis x Leonis - I got leonis, MSP and intermediate
Leonis x MSP - I got both leonis and MSP

What was it about the two MSP x MSP that produced all MSP where as leonis x leonis produced both or three phases in a single clutch? Is there a point where they start to breed true to phase with any amount of predictability?

I hope you can make some sense out of my rambling.

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db

>>I have two years of thayeri production under my belt and hopefully many more to go. So far I'm a little confused by my results.
>>
>>Example:
>>2008
>>MSP x MSP - I got all MSP
>>MSP x MSP - I got all MSP
>>Leonis x Leonis - I got both Leonis and MSP
>>
>>2009
>>Leonis x Leonis - I got leonis, MSP and intermediate
>>Leonis x MSP - I got both leonis and MSP
>>
>>What was it about the two MSP x MSP that produced all MSP where as leonis x leonis produced both or three phases in a single clutch? Is there a point where they start to breed true to phase with any amount of predictability?
>>
>>I hope you can make some sense out of my rambling.

I made clear sense out of your rambling since I too have pondered this myself....

You will have to look at the parental background of each snake you are breeding Danny. Most offspring will show the phase their grandparents were. If both grandparents were MSPs of each snake you are breeding you will most likely produce MSPs predominantly, especially if the snakes you are breeding are MSPs themselves. Kinda recessive but still unpredictable. There is some polymorphism and codominance happening as well......LOL

I liked breeding one phase to the other for such unpredictable offspring....

And...as you have witnessed Leonis phase offspring (including intermediates) are VERY variable in their selves. MSPs have their subtle differences, but generally "look" all the same.
Some people will argue that point though....LOL
I've had the hardest time selling a clutch of all MSP offspring.
The leonis are more desireable overall, but there are some out there that prefer a nice MSP.....I think it's the fact that there are lots of tricolors out there already.....

And yes...there is a point when one phase will breed true with predictability.....they may throw out one of the other phase on occasion unpredictably.

This is not the exact answer....it is merely what I have witnessed when breeding thayeri.

I hoped this helped and I wish others will respond and share their experience on the subject.

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Sounds like the msp pattern is not equally codominant with the leonis. Because of the variability of patterns I surmise that patterns in thayeri are governed by multiple alleles (like eye color in humans). This stuff is fascinating and is what helps draw me to thayeri. It's addictive, I'm sure many will agree.

I like leonis but sometimes the colors on the msps and intermediates are brighter, making for a very attractive animal (see below).

Tom Corley

>>Sounds like the msp pattern is not equally codominant with the leonis. Because of the variability of patterns I surmise that patterns in thayeri are governed by multiple alleles (like eye color in humans). This stuff is fascinating and is what helps draw me to thayeri. It's addictive, I'm sure many will agree.
>>
>>I like leonis but sometimes the colors on the msps and intermediates are brighter, making for a very attractive animal (see below).
>>

Tom,
Very true statement you made about MSP pattern is not equally codominant with leonis....and multiple alleles governing pattern....I agree...

Would you say you like MSPs more than leonis?

Would you considered the thayeri you pictured an intermediate?
AND...I agree...Thayeri unpredictability is what draws us all to these addictive snakes....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

I like leonis just a hair more than msp. But a brightly colored msp beats a duller, faded leonis any day.

I would classify the animal in my last post as an intermediate, but closer to the leonis end of the spectrum. My own notion is that at the leonis end of the spectrum, thayeri are pin banded animals with just hints of red. Also, the bands are thinner laterally that they are on the dorsum. At the msp end of the spectrum the bands are about the same width or broader than the ground color and the black lining runs more vertically down the sides.

Perhaps this issue of what constitutes an intermediate would make a good thread. People could post pictures of what they think are intermediates, and we all could get to see lots of pictures of thayeri? How could that be bad?

Tom

The animal below is my most clear example of what I'd call an msp.

I think Aubrey started a thread like that before....But there wasn't a great response...I don't know where everyone is that used to post on this forum all the time....

But here is an intermediate I have.....We just used to call them wide banded leonis phase....Since I think most are closer to leonis than MSP...but certainly in between....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

My idea of an intermediate animal is one that has somewhat thicker bands/saddles like a MSP...but a higher band count. I think true MSPs have lower band counts than intermediates. Just the criteria I have gone by.
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God Bless Evolution.

Gee, hadn't thought about band count, but that's a definite category of variation. Thanks for the input. Now I better rethink this . . .

Tom

The short answer is that MSP seem to be somewhat dominant thought not in the Mendelian sense. That's my experience anyway.

The long answer is that you'd need more info to say anything more definitive.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson