Reptile & Amphibian Forums

No one got it right, or came close to getting it right. First, the answers that were sent in or posted:

Hueco or 277 x River Road or Davis, Hueco, River Road, River Road x Limpia, River Road x Davis, Presidio County, Boy Scout Rd, Lajitas, West of Lajitas (Contrabando Creek), Chinati Mts., Sanderson and Russo's basement.

Next the history: In 2004, while I was in Sanderson, I acquired a cb pair of alterna from Shannon Brown. It was the 8th or 9th day of a 10 day trip with no alterna found and I was feeling a little p-r-e-s-s-u-r-e (instead of hearing the clock go tick-tick-tick, I heard it go BOOM-BOOM-BOOM). So, I had a weak moment, I panicked and bought a pair. It's what any non-resident with money still left in his pocket (and about to go home without an alterna) would do. Actually, I collected a nice looking, dark-phase male with blazing orange-red bands on that trip the last night I was in Sanderson at 11:45 pm on the low cuts almost 10 miles east of town-email me for pics.

Anyway, Shannon did not breed the pair of alterna that I acquired from him. Instead, he picked them up from a well known and respected breeder for a pretty good price-the kind of price that would allow for resale. At the time, I noted-at least to myself that the male was exceptional looking for its locale (the female from this pair later went eggbound and did not recover). After I got home, I poured over all the available pictorial resources to find a specimen that would be comparable to the male...with no luck.

Finally, the moment everyone has been waiting for lol; the answer to NAME THAT LOCALE:

The locale: JUNO ROAD.
The breeder: RIC BLAIR.

Unless someone can convince me that this alterna is not "mixed" with a western locality, it will be sold as "generic" at the upcoming 2009 Tucson show along with the other available Spanowicz Christmas x Limpia offspring.

Robert

Your decision to sell the snake as generic is very well founded.

This is a female I collected on the S-curves.

The blairs in this image is a male that was collected on the s-curves two years prior.

And here are their offspring.

Now there is nothing with the speckling like you have, but there is some great variability, especially with the three DIEs.
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South Texas Herps

where?
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Todd Hughes

1st is my trio of Junos, with the blairs being the male, he can also be seen on Colin's F1snakes.com still. The second image is the female that I collected.

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South Texas Herps

These are their offspring, there is some cool variability in the DIEs, which was unfortunate.

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South Texas Herps

Not the degree of intricate speckling and the high number of serrated bands present in that Blair “Juno?” BTW, my first alterna was a Juno Road; a very nice looking sky blue gray male alterna-phase that I picked up as a yearling from Damon one time while we were both in Sanderson in the early-mid nineties (Joe Branham was the breeder). In fact, it looked similar to your wc female. It was paired up with a female that I acquired from Joe Forks. That Juno Road pair produced about seven clutches for me. In addition, I produce somewhere between 70-80 locality offspring per year with my wc East Sanderson and Dryden groups. So, I’m a little familiar with the variability of alterna clutches. That said, my spidey sense has been tingling about that male ever since I got it back from Texas. I have never used it for breeding. The female from the Blair pair (that went egg bound and was put down) was bred to one of my males that descended from the Branham-Forks Junos. Anyway, thanks for responding and congrats on the very nice wc female.

Robert

OK, this was weak.

"Not the degree of intricate speckling and the high number of serrated bands present in that Blair “Juno?” "

So what WOULD be acceptable and who set that standard?

"In addition, I produce somewhere between 70-80 locality offspring per year with my wc East Sanderson and Dryden groups."

Come on now, this is still and EXTREMELY small sampling taking into consideration the number of animals in the field in that region, thus the potential for variations we haven't seen, yet.

To call it a generic because you can't document it to your own standards is fine if not commendable, but anything else is really hearsay. At least with the Limpia debacle we got the breeder to fess up to a possible error on his part.

RUSS

OK, this was weak > What was weak?

"Not the degree of intricate speckling and the high number of serrated bands present in that Blair “Juno?” > Basically, I was paraphrasing Damon’s post, and recalling the attributes of the contestants that led them to select River Road, Lajitas and Davis mountains, or these mixes. Here’s Damon’s post: “I've seen "speckly-necked" animals from Juno (mainly F1 offspring) but the type and nature of the speckling on those animals were of a totally different nature than the more delicate speckling and rough-edged primary banding of the snake Robert posted. The nuchal pattern, where the pointilist outline of a blotch runs onto the head and forms an arrow, is something I've only seen from the western parts of the range... especially the river.”

So what WOULD be acceptable and who set that standard? > Don’t know. The only standard I know is the standard for the Recommended Breeder’s list.

"In addition, I produce somewhere between 70-80 locality offspring per year with my wc East Sanderson and Dryden groups."

Come on now, this is still and EXTREMELY small sampling taking into consideration the number of animals in the field in that region, thus the potential for variations we haven't seen, yet. > DUH, lol, but it looks like you’ve taken this sentence out of context and you forgot to put in the sentences that precede and follow it, so here is the entire relevant passage, “That Juno Road pair produced about seven clutches for me. In addition, I produce somewhere between 70-80 locality offspring per year with my wc East Sanderson and Dryden groups. So, I’m a little familiar with the variability of alterna clutches.” That passage meant to convey to Mike that I’m a LITTLE familiar with the variability of alterna clutches, nothing more…nothing less.

At least with the Limpia debacle we got the breeder to fess up to a possible error on his part. > LOL, that’s only if the breeder knows he’s made a mistake. Check out Aaron’s post below.

Robert

If you can't tell the difference between a Gap and Hueco, or a Limpia and Xmas, or a Corn and an Alterna, why do we need that freaking list?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Because I think I can tell the difference between an alterna and a corn snake...LOL!

Robert

>>Because I think I can tell the difference between an alterna and a corn snake...LOL!
>>
>>Robert
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Because there are some breeders that can’t tell the difference between a Hueco and a Gap, a Limpia or an X-MAS, and, GULP, a Corn and an alterna? The list is an insurance policy that strict locality will be maintained. How did I do..time for another spanking? I do better with multiple choice questions.
LOL.

Robert

>>The list is an insurance policy that strict locality will be maintained.

The list is only as good as the folks listed on it. In fact it does not insure anything.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Perhaps I overstated the insurance afforded by the list, but I think you probably understate it. You’re right, the list is only as good as the folks on it, but there is a standard that must be met before the breeder is listed, and if the breeder fails to meet this standard on an ongoing basis (and you get wind of it) the breeder is dropped. For a buyer looking to acquire locality alterna, I think that’s some insurance. Now, here’s a question for you. You run it. Why do YOU think the list is important?

Robert

It's about honesty and integrity. If you are on that list your animals should be exactly what they are advertised to be.

That's what that list is about. Now if you are asking me why folks keep locality alterna, and why it is important for them to have access to those animals of course that is a different ball of wax.

If you think I have seen every animal that everyone on that list is selling, then sadly, you are mistaken. That list is based very much on the honor system and is not accurate even in the sense that it needs constant updating.

I look at the list and I see a half dozen names that I would even consider buying from, and even in those cases very specific things. But really, I wouldn't buy, I'd just catch them myself if I wanted them that bad.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

What is your take on why we need the list? And, no one believes that you’re constantly monitoring breeders. That’s why I threw in the caveat (and you get wind of it). Did you think I was referring to the passing of malodorous molecules? Lol.

Robert

Point taken on the knowledge of variability, it reads a little different though. My point of the “standard” is pertaining to what a locale HAS to look like versus what it can/could look like (no spanking here, LOL!), not the standard of who is and isn’t on Joe’s list. You’re quest for the long of it on the snake’s background is valid, it is on the far end of the spectrum for the locale. But you did buy it, so I truly appreciate the free lesson on documentation, LMAO!

RUSS

I bought that snake in 2004...long before our adventure with Milleniusz Spanowicz and knowledge of the Mattison-Blair-Sweetman debacle. I was an innocent babe in the woods That snake wouldn't get a passing glance from me now unless the label on the deli-cup read River Road or Lajitas, and even then I wouldn't pull the trigger unless I collected it. LOL!

Yep, sometimes we have to fall back to your montage, “If I didn’t collect, it isn’t locality!” Probably the best source of assurance there is.

RUSS

Robert,
Thanks for the answer. Although I never guessed at it on the forum I felt it had to have some "western" influence in it. I would of never guessed Juno. Now that we know the whole story I would like to Quote CMSmith from Aug 29th on this forum:
"Therein lies your answer, Ricky" BA

Hollister told me he caught a speckled neck alterna on Juno. Maybe he will come on and tell the story.

Check your email. Can you provide any contemporaneous info about this unusual looking male, like discussions with RB, etc., when you first saw it?

Robert

I've seen "speckly-necked" animals from Juno (mainly F1 offspring) but the type and nature of the speckling on those animals were of a totally different nature than the more delicate speckling and rough-edged primary banding of the snake Robert posted. The nuchal pattern, where the pointilist outline of a blotch runs onto the head and forms an arrow, is something I've only seen from the western parts of the range... especially the river.

I've caught only one Juno Rd. Alterna, a screaming 40" light male about 6 miles south of Baker;s. And I don't remember any speckled ones from the eastern part of the range but will post pics of a few oddballs from 277.

John

John there is a good chance I remember the details of the story incorrectly. It was not a snake that you had on you or that I ever saw. It was just a story and we were just chatting on the side of the road on a slow night. Maybe it was that 277 you posted below that I was thinking of. I just remember you telling me about catching an east snake with a west look to it and how you joked to other herpers about it. My memory probably embelished the speckling part.

see my other post with the picture.
J

Robert:
277 and juno have a very varied gene pool. I cannot remember ever seeing one from the eastern range with speckling but it would not be inconceivable.
The pic below is of a 2767 female from a couple miles south of Loma Alta. I could have passed it off as a Black Gap animal.
I trust Rick on localities but the animal didn't come directly from him so who knows what has been done.

it didn't come directly from him? what the hell does that mean?

I bought 3.3 "juno" roads from Ric down at the trailers in Wildhorse for a great price and I guess I must have altered them in the 100 miles between there and sanderson.Are you insane John?I take total offense to your statement.What do you think could have happened during that time? maybe I pulled a river road cross out of my @$$ and switched it with a real juno and then pulled one over on Robert so I could come home with a real true super rare juno road.WTF.......

I never even pulled them out of the freaking cups man.They where still in the same 16 oz opaque deli's with scotch tape on top of the lid that read "juno road".
Don't even try to put this on me John.

L8r Shannon

my apologies, Shannon. I in no way menat to cast aspersions. I thought they were out of parents out of ric's stock and 3rd hand.

No worries John, just wanted to be very clear about it.

L8r Shannon

As Shannon so eloquently put it, the Juno? came from Ric Blair.

I have a strong feeling that if your pic were the snake used in my game there would have been quite a few winners, or at least, less people picking the Davis Mts. or RR! LOL

Robert

Robert, Shannon and Aaron...
Is everyone selling the snakes from a certain source as generics from here on out? I only have a few of these animals but I refuse to be a hypocrit myself. I never wanted to keep or produce "generic" alterna. But if that is the truth then so be it. I just need to figure out if I want to keep these "generics" or sell them as such to get out of this situation.

What sayeth the those at the round table?

Best Wishes,

StevenX

I can talk you down from the ledge lol. This certain source (if I’m reading you correctly) has produced a lot of alterna which appear to be bonafide. I think it’s going to be case by case. IMO, there is a point in the size of a reptile collection where it is impossible for one individual to manage it properly. Maintaining six hundred to twelve hundred snakes is WAY BEYOND that point, and it may have been way beyond that point for some time.

Robert

The only thing I was potentially involved in was the "Lajitas" that ended up with Adam. After some digging I believe that what Adam ended up with was some 277's that were produced by Dave Long which I got from Dave and sold. I do not know how they became "Lajitas" because I knew they were 277's when I got them from Dave. I knew this because the female that produced them was a light alterna collected by me and Dave and we were splitting clutches. The male that was used was a dark alterna he collected himself which he backed up with a cb light Sweetman alterna and maybe some other 277 males as well. The point being I knew they were 277's at the time and they cerainly do look like 277's today, IMHO.

I do know that, of the Lajitas I owned the wc male died, 1 cb Keasler male was sold to an unknown person and the 2 Limburg's were loaned to Shannon on breeding loan, later to be sold to Charles Shanklin. As of last year they were still residing in the collection of Charles Shanklin.

All the Keasler and Limburg Lajitas' I had looked like Lajitas' should look. I do not have a pic of the Keasler male but I can tell you it was a medium alterna phase with some red in it and lots of alternates. I do have pics of 2 of the Limburg's I had and they look completely different than Adam's snakes. There may have been a third Limburg too but I could not locate it. I just cannot see myself mixing these up as they look so different from 277's. Pics are below.

I also know I never bred any of these snakes because the Keasler male had an eye infection and the Limburg's were less than 18" long when I got rid of them, in fact they barely reached breeding size for Charles last year.

That said I currently have nothing that I would consider questionable. All my Gaps were produced by Dan Johnson, I bought them directly from Dan and I have the original ID#'s on file and they all trace to very reputable collecters. I have one line of Langtries and they all descend from adults I collected myself. I have 3 lines of 277's, one North Loma line soley from adults I collected myself, 1 South Loma line also soley from adults I collected myself and one South Loma line that descends from animals Adam Sweetman and Dan Johnson collected themselves, which has been outcrossed to South Loma wc's that I collected myself. I do have a couple other localities but I have never bred them because they are either too young or not paired up. Other than that I really can't speak for some of the stuff I had in the past unless someone can show the actual animal because I don't keep records on who buys what. I think it's kind of up to the buyer to ask these questions at the time they buy them so if they have retained the ID#'s on the adults that produced them I can probably answer any questions they may have. I was not always concerned with locality or with tracing back to the actual collecter's. In those cases I either dispersed them as a line from whoever they were from, or with no info at all because the reciever didn't care to ask what they were.

Limburg Lajitas'

I think the question was posed to the three of us because we've had dealings with Ric that ended up miscues - you with the Lajitas, and Shannon and myself with whatever it is. I think Steve is asking about the likelihood that this may be only the tip of the iceberg...you know, where there's smoke there's FIRE. I don't know that to be true, but it sure doesn't look good.

Robert

I was not speaking of Aaron. In my opinion I have been pretty quiet for the most part on all the issues this year... The last few weeks however I find myself wanting to speak up.

I understand that mistakes can happen. Between all of us serious keepers/collectors/breeders there are lots of animals and opportunites for them to get mixed.

I dont know why we are seeing more of these "mistakes".
This may be due to increased communication in our community. It may just be coincidence.

Speaking my thoughts out loud here... I feel bad for everyone that got the $haft. Money is tight. Glad that through the posts the owners are able to get some things resolved and dig down to the truth.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

Here's that male collected on the last night of my ten day trip in 2004.

SMOKIN'
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G. Merker

Did you use magic marker on those orange bands? LOL. Very nice. I don't know how many trips I found an alterna on the last night of my trip. Something about paying your dues maybe. Then there are those lucky bas----s who find them the first night or 8 in a week!!!!!!!!!!!! BA

* is great and 4 in 24 wasn't to shabby either, us bastages!
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Todd Hughes

Those first night finds are sweet. I've only had one-this Boy Scout male. I can't even remember the rest of the trip...LOL!