Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know what the origin in for the albino chain kings? Doesn't seem to be too much history on them. Thanks.
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Steve W.

This subject has come up from time to time, and there was a post a long time ago from a guy who posted a picture of an "alleged" amel Eastern King. I (and a couple other's)replied back that it was real nice, but didn't think it was actually all getula lineage, but rather some amel nigra influence in the animal.

Shortly after this all got going, another guy posted some very interesting info on this subject, and it involved some very well known names as well. It went as follows................

In fact I know of 3 pure Albino Eastern Kingsnakes in the past.

1st was a WC from New Jersey. Bob Fengya (name from the past huh) was working part time at a pet store and received a call from a Dad stating his son had caught a snake in a burn/trash pile behind their home. He stated they couldn't get it to eat and was hoping that if they brought it to the store they may give him some kind of a credit towards a "python" or something. They told him to bring it in and they would do something for him. When they brought it in, Bob said he saw the kid walking towards him with one of the large pickle jars and in it he could see a "white" snake. Bob recognized it as an Eastern King and purchased it from teh kid. Not sure what the amount was but I remember it was enough for the kid to get a ball python and set up. When Bob purchased the snake it was approximately 14"-18" long from what I remember. It was also a female. The kid had had only had it for a few weeks. Bob raised it to breeding size and placed it with a male. In a bad stroke of luck, or call it what you want, he fell asleep on the couch and when he woke, the male had killed the female and was comsumming her. End of that line. I think this was along the mid 80's.

The 2nd amel I know of was a wc amel male. It was caught in Kernersville, Georgia I think. Either way it was just off I-85 on highway 106. It was caught coming out of a Cudzoo ravine. The male was taken to Doug Moody (originator of the albino Nelsons Milk) in POwder Spring, SC. I can't remember the size but either way, he bred it to one female. Same thing, she killed the male but the breeding did take and she produced some "hets" Doug sold a pair to someone who I can't remember but never told them they were possibly het amel. The others were given/sold to Randy Knight. I think that is the name, per Doug, it was the guy who used to put on the every 6 week show in Columbia, SC. This is where my memory is a little faded but I think Doug said Randy never did anything with the project, some babies were sold to different places but none were sold as pairs and the line was never reproduced to my knowledge. This is from probably the late 80's early 90's.

Snake 3 was a WC that belonged to the Zoo Atlanta collection. A lady called the Zoo and said she had a yellow snake in her garage and asked them to come and get it. She was in a rural area outside of Atlanta and they sent 2 guys out. The pulled a washer and dryer out of the wall in the garage and tada there was an Albino Eastern King. It was placed in the collection. It was a hatchling. They raised her and she was bred several times. Babies were always sent or traded to other institutions but non made it to private hands. I contacted Howard Hunt several times trying to purchase some since I knew they were a pure animal (the female adult was stunning, great looking snake). I offered as much as $500.00 for a pair of hets or $350.00 for a het male and he refused every time. The adult finally persished a few years ago. So, that line is out there but good luck getting your hands on any from it.

I heard rumors of an albino black kingsnake coming out of Tennesee or North Georgia. It supposedly came from the integrade zone so my personal belief is that some of the albino Eastern kings we see are probably descendants from that line.

Well, that is what I know, you can ask questions and I really do not know more than that, sorry. You can contradict me, I really don't care because I know what I know and I don't like arguing or defending my knowledge over the internet. Not being a jerk, I just don't like arguing over something like this.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I heard rumors of an albino black kingsnake coming out of Tennesee or North Georgia. It supposedly came from the integrade zone so my personal belief is that some of the albino Eastern kings we see are probably descendants from that line.

That animal is probably one the history of which can be found by searching this forum. It was collected by a fella who lived in the chattanooga TN area but who was said to have collected regularly in georgia. (the fella who bought the albino had bought wild-types from the same guy before, and said they always were typical looking chain kings.)

Because he believed it to be a chain king, the buyer bred the albino to chain kings and eventually there was a good supply of them, so there's no doubt not just some but most of the amel "eastern" kings in the trade are from this line. I ended up with some and will post a pic. The chain pattern on the amels was narrower than on the hets (see pix) but i assumed the amelanism was affecting the pattern a little, as it does on some other morphs. One of the hets I got was supposedly a first-gen het, and it looked like Lgg, so I accepted that that's what they were. Of course, if the original amel WAS nigra but was bred to Lgg, the offspring would show intergrade appearance; if the original was a nigra/Lgg intergrade, because it was bred to Lgg the offspring would look much like Lgg. And, of course, if the original was an amel Lgg, the offspring would look like Lgg. So the visual evidence is hard to interpret.

The reason people wondered whether the original might be nigra or an intergrade was that in the buyer's early accounts of the acquisition, he said the collector mentioned "chattanooga" or "chatooga" or something that sounded like that: There's the city, of course, and there's the Chattooga River, where the movie Deliverance was filmed. (Wikipedia: "The Chattooga River serves as part of the boundary between Georgia and South Carolina after leaving North Carolina near latitude 35" There may be a second Chattooga River elsewhere in the SE, as well. At any rate, either the city or the river would put the collection site in nigra range or an intergrade zone (but close to the eastern end of it, in the case of the river). I reported the facts according to the original buyer at some length, and i'm sure someone will find that story and post it here.

Like you, I have no dog in this fight. They are what they are and like the hondurensis discussions on the milksnake forum, the precise answer may never be known.

Meanwhile, a photo or two... (note the link to a pic of an early het, just below the photos)

a het from early in the project

Terry!,....this is what it's all about!, getting great history like all this stuff on the regal animal's we all love!

I am saving all this along with the other data I have regarding this. It's hard to imagine way more info getting drawn to the surface like this in what seems like a blink of an eye!..LOL!

I am really glad you chimed in with all this information. What a great added bonus this was!.

The original poster to this thread never in his wildest dreams thought he would receive THIS much info!..hahaha!

very cool indeed!

thanks again, Terry!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Terry,..

The way the chain pattern splits off into an upside-down "Y" ventrolaterally in the photo's is another good characteristic that helps reinforce this being the genuine article as well!

thanks again!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

You're right. I never thought I'd even get a hit. This is a lot on info and good info. I have an adult that I purchased and I was told it was from Chatanooga river, TN. So I guess it's not pure but it sure looks like it is. I guess it's probably not going to be bred then. But it's still a keeper just for it's looks. Thanks.
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Steve W.

Yeah,...it's kind'a funny about you probably thinking nobody would respond at all to your post,..then all of this interesting info enters the scene..LOL!

I'm sure we would all enjoy seeing a pic of your animal if you wouldn't mind,.. certainly not to critique, but rather to just be able to glance at another nice photo.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'll get a pic of it later and post it. It won't be easy because he want's to eat everything that moves and he's very well fed. LOL
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Steve W.

Great!,..

Man,....yes!, I can certainly relate to them wanting to eat everything in sight, I have a few "garbage disposals" myself!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Here's some pics. Sorry some may not be that great but I was under attack.

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Steve W.

more pics.

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Steve W.

........and thanks for those additional photo's of that handsome serpent!....I guess you still have all your fingers after that, correct?..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>... and I was told it was from Chatanooga river, TN...

well, jsut remember there IS no chattanooga river in TN: It's the Tennesee river that runs thru chattanooga.

td

The snake doesnt know its a intergrade, it IS the same species even if the ssp are mixed. This "idea of purity" should be held to different standards comparing wc animals(and their decendants)to CB manmade intergrades. There is no stigma breeding these, as they have been bred like this since the line started about 15 years ago. Dont limit yourself to the narrow minds of the few on the forum. LMAO.

I agree but in this case what should it be bred to? If I breed it to a eastern some may say it's not pure and the same if I breed it to a e.black king. To me I see nothing but eastern in this snake but history may say different.

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Steve W.

Whatever the first one was, it's pretty clear it was subsequently bred to eastern chain kings, so that would be the ssp dominating the current albinos. I'd say breed it to Lgg: breeding it to nigra would, in my opinion, suggest one of those breeding programs designed to transfer an albino gene from one animal to another... in triangulum, the nelsoni & sinaloan ssps might be a pertinent example.

Thanks Terry. What would you call the offspring? Lgg?
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Steve W.

.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

notice the link to the amel pic, immediately below the photo.

closer look at an amel

Why certainly!!!

I think I will!..LOL!

thanks!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

the fella who bought the original amel, btw, was kevin mccurley of NERD. All the history came from him. I haven't found the long, detailed history i wrote but will look again tomorrow. One version i found was that kevin remembered the collector saying it was found near the Chattanooga River: There is NO Chattanooga river (chattanooga, i think, would put it in nigra range) but it would be easy to HEAR "Chattooga River" and if you weren't familiar with that name, interpret it as "Chattanooga" River. Which would put the animal in an intergrade zone on the TN/NC/SC/ and even GA state lines. As I said, we'll probably never know, but i'll keep digging so we have more evidence about what we don't know.

for the details......I know I've felt somewhat fuzzy on this story over the years. Looking forward to hearing more.....hope the family is well.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Doug, that was great info. With all the digging i did into the amel "eastern" kings seven or eight years ago, I'd never been privy to your information. Thanks!

Hey!,...the pleasure was ALL MINE!

Thank YOU for providing the tons of other great info you managed to dig up over several years....just awesome!

This stuff really made my entire night!

thanks again, buddy!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

do you like come with your own background music too? LMAO....that was good info though. I only knew about the Bob Fengya story....nice job there Magillicuddy......
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

LOL!!!,...funny stuff!

Yeah, I can dig up some old eight-track tapes of Led Zeppelin to go along with all this info, as long as you don't mind hearing two or three songs at once!,....but if ya' place the folded up matchbook cover in there just right, you can usually get it to play just the one song!..LOL!

Seriously though, glad you guys appreciate this stuff like I do.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

According to the range map in Brian Hubbs' great book "Common Kingsnakes: A Natural History of Lampropeltis getula", the Chattooga River is throughout its length solely in the range of Lgg, not nigra, and not an Lgg-nigra intergrade zone.

I found the transcript of an interview i did with Kevin McCurley in 2003. The remarks below include the transcript AND corrections/additions he made to the transcript when i sent it to him for review. Kevin's conclusion was "I feel 100% certain" it is an eastern king, adding, "I have no other reason since I derive no monies from the project at this point." The transcript included his recollections.

Kevin said the albino:

"Came from a good ol' boy who bought snakes collected by local college
kids and sold them. That was more than ten years ago,

"I think around 8 years ago!!

"I was just getting started, i don't remember his name. But I'd gotten chain kings from him before and he called me and said he had an albino chain king, he wanted
to trade up, he wanted to get into blood pythons, things like that. So I
bought it. I wasn't sure what i'd get. We were actually doing some trading and he kind of pulled it out and said he also had that...he did not start the conversation with that intent.

2. DESCRIPTION

"I had chain kings and when it arrived I compared it to them and thought,
'this is it, a chain king'. I wasn't sure what he was going to send
me--an albino chain king or some other kind of king? So when I got it I
sat there and stared at that snake and checked it against books and
checked the head it was identical to my other chain kings. I felt
absolutely 100% confident it was a chain king. Yes, I was possibly expecting some albino speckle mix or albino cal king...it was an albino and weird to compare to a normal chain but the scalation matched and it did not look like anything but a chain king..it was small...a juvie.

"It had a very, very nice chain pattern, and it grew into a very big,
stocky animal, a real thick neck.

3. GEOGRAPHY

"I heard Tennessee and a river bank in the story of where it came from. I
might have heard Chattanooga, might have heard Chattooga, i don't know
the region and the ranges. I was familiar with Chattanooga as a place...it may have been Chattooga.

"I remember (it was)

"Collected by college student.
"Riverbank
"Cha..whatever and TN. It may have been near Chattooga riverbanks near
TN....That was not exactly critical to me. I was just getting it because I
thought it was cool. I paid exactly $900.00 for it!!

"thought it was Chattanooga, but it was a river bank. (MY NOTE: remember there is no Chattanooga River) Wherever it was, all the other kings I got from the same guy
were chain kings. I never had black kings (other than the mexican kind). I have never had a wild caught black king(eastern) ever!!

4. FIRST BREEDINGS

"I had a few wild caught female chain kings, and i bred them to him and
produced hets and they all looked exactly like chain kings.

Terry,...

Like I said before, I think this stuff is invaluable, and extremely interesting. To be able to have all this info. now at the bat of an eyelash with the good ol' internet is just unreal!..LOL!

I have tucked all this good stuff away in a safe place for any future reference in a word processing folder!

Much Gracias! my good man!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

At the second (need to check the actual date) Orlando Breeder's show (now in Daytona) there were two guys that had a table with many L.G.G. On display was a large albino kingsnake with a very distinct yellow chain pattern. I belive it was a Male. They told me it was a W/C individual. I can not recall addtional info. they may have shared.

No W/C individual herps were permitted then at this show as it remains as such to this day. So they were not openly marketing it's sale and for the most part it was only there for display.

Later on in the weekend I ran into one of the two that had this snake. He ranted a bit about all the questions he was being asked about it's authenticity. Apparently, he "was" open to all offers made by anyone at the show. What annoyed him was many would not offer too much for the snake as they were using the fact of no history for the lower offerings. He went on to complain that if he had a bigger name it never would have been questioned

Anyway, I lost track of them and have no clue as to where this snake ended up.

Very cool stuff, Rich!....

Yeah, I can totally understand exactly what you are saying there. Just like if I were to produce an "actual" albino Sinaloan milksnake,... it would be scoffed at and just thought of as coming from nelsoni lineage like all the other joker's that claim they have them..LOL!!

Thanks for that additional tid-bit of info!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>At the second (need to check the actual date) Orlando Breeder's show (now in Daytona) there were two guys that had a table with many L.G.G. On display was a large albino kingsnake with a very distinct yellow chain pattern.

From memory: Tom Chiang, who worked first and most closely with the animals from Kevin McCurley, told me kevin took his albino to one of the early orlando expos. That may or may not be the same animal you're talking about, but the one that's the subject of this thread reportedly WAS there on an early occasion. It'll be interesting to see when the first couple expos were, see how that coincides with the rest of the timeline. I'm checking but maybe someone knows that off the top of their head?

>>At the second (need to check the actual date) Orlando Breeder's show (now in Daytona)

I talked to Wayne Hill this morning. To refresh all our memories: He says the first expo was at the holiday inn in orlando in 1990; it moved to the nearby twin towers the next year, where it was held until it moved to daytona 10 years ago. He says the one we just had was the 20th annual event.

so...that "second' expo might have been in '91, or allowing for memory lapses, the early 90s. You can compare that to Kevin's and others' timelines. Fun sorting out the details.

Yes, it was at the twin towers. Lost now though, have to go over the thread again to establish a time line.

Thanks for the info. Thats quite a while ago. Wonder how many herpers that post here were born in that year

Thanks for reposting that info, I forgot I had posted that a long time ago. Another note in regards to the Nerd Amel, one of the "issues" with that snake is that when albino babies were first made available, they looked almost like a cal king amel, not like a chain king. Fengya, myself and a few others stated our opinion that it didn't look pure. This was based on the fact that the head pattern looked cal king and NONE of the bands broke up on the sides. There were no more offered for another 2 years (that we saw) and then 2 full seasons later, the breeder advertised them again and this time the "same parents" produced babies that look like what we are seeing now.

That said, maybe the nigrita is the influence that casued the lack of chaining in the lateral pattern, but in the original story, the owner stated the snake was found on a river bank near the University of Tennessee and I do not think that is in the integrade zone..shrug?

Again, thanks for digging my old info up.

dc

Sure thing!,...I was glad I saved that great post you made long ago.

I remember seeing some so-called albino "Easterns" that looked exactly as you just now described too a few years back, the ones I saw were DEFINITELY not all L.g.g., but certainly looked to have strong Cal. King influence as you too just mentioned.

Over the years, there is no doubt there have been many different lines and types of these variants that have popped up. Some looking much more L.g.g. than others for sure.

Much of this fits perfectly into what I have STRONGLY suspected all along with at least a fair amount of these animals. Back-breeding to the preferred "target" ssp. a few more generations works wonders doesn't it?..LOL!

All very cool stuff!, and it was really great that I saved your post from long ago to look it over once again, it was definitely fun!

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I know of another PURE one personally. Yes, I do hybrids but this has nothing to do with me. I personally was in a pet shop in Loganville, Georgia probably 15 years ago and saw an albino snake that at first glance thought was a thin banded Calf king. Looking closer it looked like a pure Eastern king. I asked the owner about it and he said just an hour before a person brought it in saying they found it in their yard and traded it for dry goods. This person didn't keep snakes. I told the guy DNR would just confiscate it and the Zoo would get it. He thought he could just put display animal on the cage and I told him that is still illegal. I knew of someone that might be interested and he gave him a call. They worked out a trade deal for pet supplies for that snake. $1000 worth of wholesale stuff I heard later. The snake was kept and I heard some hets were made. Both the pet shop and the trader for the snake wen't out of business. Have no idea whatever happened to that snake and its offspring. IF the owner of the pet store was telling the truth about it just being brought in then I can verify it was an alb Eastern king. Loganville Georgia is no where near any other subspecies of kings. It is 1 hour east of Atlanta, Georgia.

Cool!,......another very interesting piece of the puzzle.

thanks for sharing that with us!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I know of another PURE one personally.... Loganville Georgia is no where near any other subspecies of kings. It is 1 hour east of Atlanta, Georgia.

Henry, thanks, that's fascinating info. BTW, the roughly "15 years ago" coincides roughly with Kevin McCurley's timeline, but there are discrepancies, too: Kevin remembered paying $900 for the animal, for example, and said it came from a broker.

But if you check Hubbs' book's range map (p. 233 in his book "Common Kingsnakes"--I'm gonna ask him if i can share just the Chattooga River area of the map here) you'll see Loganville actually falls DARN near the line between eastern king and the intergrade region. I realize we're all looking at different range maps, and i don't know what's considered the final word on the subject at this time. In the case of this snake, and using Hubbs' book, it might literally depend on whether the snake was found EAST or WEST of the pet store!

As Brian and others have pointed out, you can have a "classic" phentoype in the middle of an intergrade zone, and animals with intergrade characteristics phenotypically right in the middle of a "pure" subspecies' range.

>>"As Brian and others have pointed out, you can have a "classic" phentoype in the middle of an intergrade zone, and animals with intergrade characteristics phenotypically right in the middle of a "pure" subspecies' range."

Terry,...

Yes, how very true!. Different phenotypes can and do pop up in any of these situations. When consistency is seen in the clutches of these animals, only then is one relatively certain as to EXACTLY what they truly are.

But regardless of any of this, no matter what, all these different stories are invaluable and extremely interesting. I'm sure out of all these different stories that span all these years, some are bound to be more Lgg than others, and vise-versa. That's the interesting part about wild animals!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>> Yes, how very true!. Different phenotypes can and do pop up in any of these situations.

It's worth pointing out that six threads above this one, Scott John has posted a pic of an animal showing nigra influences inside the Lgg range.

Yes, I saw that as well, and thought it was very interesting. Like you said, just like our amel L.g.getula discussion.

cool stuff!(well, sadly not for the snake though)

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Wonder if we are all talking about the same snake

Seems around the same period of time. Back then, everyone was considered a broker in some way LOL

Might have moved from hand to hand.

Here's the range map from Brian's book. He graciously granted me permission to post it here. Please note that I added the "nigra," "getula," Chattanooga" and "Chattooga" legends for the purposes of this thread.

Brian's book is great. If you haven't seen it, check out the details at the link that appears immediately below the image (and is repeated here)
http://www.herpsofarkansas.com/forum/topic/3748/new-common-kingsnake-book/

But back to the subject at hand: I've put a "C" about where Chattanooga's located and an "R" where the Chattooga River runs north on the georgia/south carolina border and into north carolina. You can look on at atlas to get a different perspective of your own.

Based on this range map, if the snake was found around Chattanooga it's nigra; around the Chattooga, it's getula. Note there is no Chattanooga river and the earliest stories mentioned a river. I think the precise truth will never be known because of the details lost to time, and that's unfortunate.

details on brian's book

I have to admit I had never seen that range map before. Not into range maps or localitys. I assumed all were Easterns around Gwinnett County since all I ever saw were classic Eastern kings as far as looks. The alb in question I saw was a very skinny 2 1/2 to 3 foot snake that was very wild caught looking as far as body weight and girth except it was a little skinny. It appeared very Eastern in appearance but as we know that isn't a full adult size and it could have changed some as it grew. The person who ended up getting it from the pet store was a wholesaler with an actual business in a warehouse that also sold fish in Atlanta if that helps. I won't say his name since I never say him trade for it or saw it after the pet shop had it and what they did or didn't do as far as a trade is hearsay.

There was talk that this animal was an intergrade. Some were quite adamant with their opinions even with the absence of convincing proof (DNA anyone??.... Bueller.....Bueller). Armchair herpetology abounds.............

Either way the animal is pretty, feisty (finger eater), and a wonderful program ambassador for all snakes.

Well, I was probably one of those adamant guy's you mentioned, and in lieu of all these great stories and information, it seems that virtually anything is really possible regarding this. So I will take this opportunity to apologize if I seemed a bit cocky over this a long while back. All this great info has certainly shed some new light on this.

I will admit, your photo does look virtually identical to what many Easterns can display from certain areas. So regardless of whatever any of this info suggests or not, that is truly one nice looking animal. Thanks for sharing that pic with all of us once again!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

reads far more negative than I intended. My herp friends and coworkers discuss topics like this all the time and we rarely come to a consensus (esp without having convincing evidence). The different opinions are all part of the fun.

I love threads that have spirited (but not mean spirited) discussion, that's why I like the kingsnake forum!

Take care,
Phil

I totally agree and understand Phil,.....all is well.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The animal pictured came from Zoo Atlanta as well. I would have to pull his file to get all the details.

Wow!,....I wasn't aware of that at ALL!. So that coincides exactly with the info I had from way back too.

Very cool indeed! Thanks for bringing that up. Do you work there at the zoo?

~Doug

>> "Snake 3 was a WC that belonged to the Zoo Atlanta collection. A lady called the Zoo and said she had a yellow snake in her garage and asked them to come and get it. She was in a rural area outside of Atlanta and they sent 2 guys out. The pulled a washer and dryer out of the wall in the garage and tada there was an Albino Eastern King. It was placed in the collection. It was a hatchling. They raised her and she was bred several times. Babies were always sent or traded to other institutions but non made it to private hands. I contacted Howard Hunt several times trying to purchase some since I knew they were a pure animal (the female adult was stunning, great looking snake). I offered as much as $500.00 for a pair of hets or $350.00 for a het male and he refused every time. The adult finally persished a few years ago. So, that line is out there but good luck getting your hands on any from it.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

When and how did you acquire this one from the zoo if you don't mind?

dc

Aaaaa! Aaaaa!!!! fell off the back of a truck a while ago..

Yeah, yeah, that's it, it fell off a truck, yeah!!!!

The one I came across in Orlando had an extremely well defined chain pattern. Too bad no pic of it. It actually was a double take, head turner.

Daryl, if you happen to know the origins of some of the Florida pine morphs as well, then jump on over to the pituophis forum. Bring any pics you have as well

That animal is owned by the NC State Museum of Natural Sciences. It was transferred from Zoo Atlanta when a previous zoo employee moved to NC. I don't know if this fact legitimizes the animals purity or not but I have no financial, or personal, motives for displaying the snake on the forums. It is an excellent captive (minus the finger feeding) but I personally prefer the normal color schemes on getula. Very neat critter.

I'll be darned!,... if it ain't the info presenter from way back!..LOL!

Thanks again for chiming in with that valuable info regarding this from a long while ago!

I remember all this very vividly as though it was only yesterday..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks Doug. I lurk almost every week, but rarely post any more.

Phil, I wasn't insinuating that you were trying to make money or dicrediting your story on the animal you pictured, sorry if it sounded that way. I do have concerns/observations on the animal and the story though.

1. From what I was told by Howard, they bred the original albino female to normals only. The male was in their collection so only hets were produced. My memroids are getting worse, but I THINK she laid clutches 8 or 9 times but all of the babies would have been hets and they did not keep any per Howard. So I wonder how this albino was produced if what I was told/remember is correct?

2. The normal male that was bred to the albino female was very traditional looking for MOST Georgia kings, ie. 3-4 scale width bands. I saw the albino female on several occasions and she was the same, 3-4 scale width bands. So, looking at the picture posted, that animal is not representative of what the mother and father looked like in regards to pattern. However, I understand sometimes animals are born that look differently so maybe that is why...shrug?

3. Is it just me or does this animal look very similar in pattern to the likely integrade albino from Tennesee? BTW, not sure if anyone saw my post to the original poster in this thread, but when I was digging hard for the lineage to the Tenn. animal, I was told by Tom Chiang that the animal was collected on a river or creek bank close to the University of Tennesee. Just tossing that in for what it is worth.

Again, not discrediting what you posted at all Bradley, just making my observations. I hope the animal pictured did somehow make it out of the Zoo and can make it into public hands.

dc

Wow!,......this is getting to be just like a "best-seller" mystery novel!..LOL!

It just don't get no better!..hhaha!. Thanks for sharing that additional cool stuff as well.

take care!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Well, if I am good for anything it is...uh well, I am not sure I am good for anything.

There are three snakes I really like ALOT, Eastern Milks, Eastern Chain Kings and LA Pines. So I have put a good deal of research into the kings and pines.

dc

Yes, I fully agree, that's a big part of the fun in this hobby, learning all you can about the natural history of the snakes you enjoy. I'm the very same way..... All about the details!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I almost forgot to comment on the beautiful elapsoides you posted there, did you capture that one yourself? I really like those little dude's, and used to breed a fair amount of those little wiggle worms myself.

~Doug



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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yes I caught that female about 4 years ago in Marion, SC. That was my first one and remains the only one I have ever found.

dc

AWESOME!,...so that is proof it is doing very well, as the photo will attest! That's great to hear, and it looks extremely healthy and pretty.

I even had a few that would rush the lid to snatch pinks from my hand!. Tell me that isn't cool rarity!. I really miss the ones I had.

I don't know if you know my friend Chris Nickelson over on the milk forum, but he has some downright gorgeous examples, including an awesome High-yellow hypo-ish specimen that is absolutely MIND-BLOWING!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>, I was told by Tom Chiang that the animal was collected on a river or creek bank close to the University of Tennesee. Just tossing that in for what it is worth.

boy, these stories are hard to track. your recollection suggests the confusion (not necessarily yours, maybe mine? tom's? kevin's?) that can occur. could you check with tom again and see if maybe he told you the collector was a u of tenn student, NOT that it was collected there? UT is in knoxville, not chattanooga. i've never heard knoxville mentioned as a collection site, either from tom or kevin mccurley. I HAVE heard "chattanooga river" but there is no such river, so either chattanooga or the similarly-sounding "chattooga" river would seem to better fit the loose, early details. The Tennessee RIVER, not university, is in Chattanooga. See how all the proper nouns are getting mixed in a confusing fashion?

Or there's the other possibility-- that tom told me, too, the u of tenn as collection site, and i lost that memory in my gray cells.

This reminds me of when my third grade teacher conducted a little experiment for our benefit one day, you know how this one goes..LOL!

She had the first kid in the row whisper something specific to the kid directly behind, as this info got passed on, by the time it reached the last kid in the class, it was something totally different!..hahaha!

You can just tell the kids in this classroom are discussing this getula topic too!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>This reminds me of when my third grade teacher conducted a little experiment for our benefit one day, you know how this one goes..LOL!
>>
>> She had the first kid in the row whisper something specific to the kid directly behind, as this info got passed on, by the time it reached the last kid in the class, it was something totally different!..hahaha!

Doug,

A SIMILAR THREAD ON HONDURAN MORPHS IN THE MILKSNAKE FORUM HAD INFO POPPING UP I COULDN'T CONFIRM FROM MY NOTES, SO I WROTE BILL LOVE (who originated the hypo hondo morph) AND ASKED HIM TO CLARIFY FOR ME. IRONICALLY, HE BEGAN HIS REPLY THIS WAY, PROVING HOW ON-TARGET YOU ARE:

""The story is "drifting" a little," Bill said, "kinda like that old game of telephone, eh?"

You can see the rest of his comments in this post: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1736364,1739135

As noted throughout this post, we'll probably never know for sure what ssp the albino kings are. But the subject is worth the effort. And the process is loaded with reminders that we all forget things and are best served referring to notes and/or going back for info from "the horse's mouth," as it were (apologies to Bill Love!) I apologize now for any post i've made in this thread in which i said, "If i remember correctly..." That's a slippery slope...

LOL!!

Yes, this can get pretty funny at times, for sure!

As you know, I was a big contributor in that one over there as well, and I know and have all the same details on all that good stuff too. Aside from a few bucks difference in the story, all this is very well understood by a few in the hobby, including you, me, Shannon Brown, Scott Ballard, Lois Porras, Brian Barczyk, Helmut Hansen, and the Hortenbach's, etc...Ernie Wagner actually had the first known anery Honduran. but unfortunately, it was killed by another milk he temporarily put it in with to do some cage cleaning....very sad indeed.

I even have to this very day as we speak some of Brian Barczyk's original anerythristic line he acquired from Dave Doherty back in the early 90's. They have NEVER been outcrossed to ANY other milks whatsoever, and are exactly as they were on BHB's vendor table way back in 1996-97. I even told this to Brian Barczyk at the Daytona show, and he was very surprised to here this news. I don't think anyone in the entire hobby can say they have the same anery's that I still have to this very day. I still have the original male anery, and the het tricolor female that were bought for an astounding $1200.00 dollars, and a few of their offspring as well. There is some stuarti involvement to some degree there too, just as was mentioned before on the other forum.

Stuarti, polyzona, abnorma, and even possibly other's are all known involved "player's" in the game of "hondurensis".

I once had what were probably the best examples of olygozona as well, but that was many years ago, and are long since gone forever. I sure do wish I still had those guy's. Scott Ballard showed me a tagged museum jar specimen that was absolutely identical to my entire clutch in every single way.

You and I have much in common Terry, this is a fact. I've also been heavy into snakes now for forty-two years, and even had large Indigo's, floridana, true Miami Corns and such at the tender age of eight years old and on in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida growing up. I think my very first captive snake was a rough green snake(Opheodrys aestivus) at age seven.

I will never forget things like taking my Indigo to my third grade "show & tell" session at elementary school. What great times those were!

take care, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Let me put the recipts, drink bottle and an old license plate I found into the bat computer and see what it say, lol.

I will see if I can make contact, like you suggest, after all these years I may have it mixed up. For the record, I really like these guys and at this point it is one of those "either a person believe it is pure or not".

I'll let you know what I find if anything

dc

The animal was collected in 1992 in DeKalb Co by a gentleman who donated it to Zoo Atlanta. The animal then made its way to NC as part of an institutional donation. Another Eastern that was het for amel came at the same time from ZA. I will have to search a bit more to find additional information (this has turned out to be fun!).

Unfortunately, from the hobbyist perspective, this amel male will likely remain in the museum collection and be used in our educational programs. He might not be adding to the diversity of the captive breeding pool but he does help visitors gain an appreciation for snakes in general and eastern kings in particular (whose numbers have dropped drastically in those areas of the state that have seen rapid development).

I hope some of this was helpful/interesting, it certainly has been for me.

Phil, I was glad to see a pertinent Ferris Bueller reference. It's clear we could also use someone with Monk's detecting skills to sort all this out. After a little of that funky hand jive, he could tell us, "here's what happened."

I'm waiting for what, maybe a Fast Times reference? Or is everyone exhausted, and as the Python boys say, "run away, run away..." ?

we can fix this...my dad has an awesome set of tools...
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Todd Hughes

I found this online:

Look at you... member of the honor roll, assistant to the assistant manager of the movie theater. I'm tellin' ya, Rat, if this girl can't smell your qualifications, then who needs her, right?

>>I found this online:
>>
>>Look at you... member of the honor roll, assistant to the assistant manager of the movie theater. I'm tellin' ya, Rat, if this girl can't smell your qualifications, then who needs her, right?

LOL. Thanks. We are all renaissance men.