Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a map supplied by the US Geological Survey that shows where Burmese Pythons are supposedly able to survive. I have not seen this map linked on here, but Im sure some of you have seen it.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/images/2008-2-20/map_2100_projection.jpg

Oh and my project for my Renewable Natural Resource class at LSU is to research an invasive species; I chose the burmese python of course. Can anyone here shoot me in the direction of any of the research that has been done? Obviously most of the research is open to debate, such as that map I posted. I personally don't believe that a burmese python can live in 99% of the places the map mentions. I do believe they could survive in the marshes of south Louisiana, but I don't believe they will find a way to get there.

If you look a couple of threads down, you'll see some of the recent info to come out of the Everglades. The USGS map was discussed at length when it was first released, probably a couple of pages back. You should be able to find quite a few references and info by reading a few pages back on this forum and also on the Herp News and CITES forum. Outside links are sometimes removed according to the site TOS so you may not see the original USGS site link here.

WoW! I didn't release it had been so long! Maybe this link to ks threads will help.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/search/index.php

Sorry, there's no edit, lol!

If you go to the search page and enter python expansion or python map in the 2008 archives, you'll find some posts by some pretty knowledgeable folks.

Thanks!

Go to VPI's website and you'll find the paper done by the Barkers on it. Esssentially, if it's warm enough for Burms to make it to DC, Miami will be under water, anyway.

Also, and I have no idea where to find it, there's the graduate thesis from the student at FIU linking the DNA profiles to the animals from Andrew.

Whit Gibbons doesn't seem to have read that one

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf
Link

I happened to get into a discussion with several random members of the academic set, I guess that's how these guys like to refer to themselves. Mainly the topic centered on Rodda and junk science. Its amazing how defensive these big brains become in the face of facts that don't agree with their position.

Long story short their a pretty ugly group when its not going their way and none to bright. One of the participants in the discussion is a "scientist" that's working with Skip and company in the glades. We exchanged some private messages and I was asked to keep what was shown to me between us. Fair enough.

The group consensus was that the Barkers work was garbage. The Rodda paper was defended as good and proper science. According to this cluster of academic groupies no scientist would ever use sensationalism or has any interest in grant money.

I was sent an email full of criticisms regarding the Barkers most recent paper from one of the scientist working in the glades on the burm project.

This email was so poorly written and disorganized it could have been done by a 7th grader. Nothing personal against this guy I think he's OK but com `on. When I pointed out one of the many flaws in his critique he was sincerely at a lost as to why his analogy was off. I didn't explain, if someone at that level couldn't see the flaw in their thinking they ether don't want to or they need to get their college tuition money back.

I do think this guy means well and is honest, Im sure he wants to be fair but he's also very influenced by his senior peers who are not so clean. He also refuses to admit to any personal bias no matter how obvious it is.

It was all very amusing. Personally I think the Barkers papers are the best written, most accurate and honest appraisal of the glades situation that Ive read so far. The main points being that they bring forward key issues that have been selectively left out of the other works.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I agree. The problem is that many "scientists" tend to be rather inflexible, and feel that any criticism of their work is an attack on them personally. That concept shows that while many of the academia are intelligent, their personal psyche leaves more than a bit to be desired.

The Barkers, on occasion, have not suffered fools gladly (probably Tracy moreso than Dave ) I think that is probably why the group you refer to has their hackles raised a bit. I noticed that the Barker's paper has been revised more than a bit since April when it first came out. Some of that may have to with the way they feel, and reaction to the paper.

Having known Tracy for over 25 years, I consider the Barkers giants in their field. I'm not sure Rodda et al are anywhere close.

Ernie,

Thanks for almost being nice. I will post the relevant portion of the e-mail you are speaking of below. Everyone else should know that these points were made in response to the paper written by Dave and Tracy Barker so it might help to refer to that while reading this. I was writing this for use on another herp forum... not for publication. I'm not too concerned about your opinion of my writing style. I did take your advice and contact the Barkers. Dave wrote a long and heartfelt response and I think he is a decent guy. I've admired the Barkers since I was 10 years-old. However, the paper they wrote about Burms in FL is full of errors. Anyway, here is the e-mail (and thanks for respecting my privacy... it's no longer an issue in regard to this e-mail):

1) Pythons ARE invasive. Individual animals matter when you are dealing with endangered species. Just killing a few Key Largo Woodrats is enough to qualify them as invasive. They have also eaten a (federally endangered) wood stork. How many other animals do you think have been killed by pythons over the years? 10,000 pythons (the more conservative estimate) would sure eat a lot! Even if they all only ate one meal, that's still 10,000 vertebrates killed in the everglades. How many meals do you think a python eats in a year? In a lifetime? Nobody knows but the point is that it's a large number and there's no way you could say it is not environmental harm.

2) Feral hogs and house cats really aren't that common in the everglades. House cats generally need people around in order to survive and there aren't really any people in the glades. They can be found around the edges of the park but that's about it. I've only seen hogs on two occasions and I rarely see any sign of them. In the panhandle we see them almost daily and it is easy to see where they have been rooting around. These are just my observations though and are mostly from the national park, not the greater everglades region. I highly doubt they are "recognized as the most detrimental predators of native wildlife." Who said that?

3) "The simple fact is that
most exotic and “alien” species, both plants and animals,
don’t derail ecosystems and they may make positive
contributions."

That statement by the Barkers is misleading. Most exotic animals are not invasive. And most invasive animals are not large, generalist predators.

4) "We are not aware of any studies published on the diet
of Burmese pythons in their native lands."

A "graduate biologist" should be able to find some. They are there. The one I'm looking at now says they eat a variety of birds, mammals, and reptiles. This includes a full-grown leopard and several species of deer.

5) "Burmese py-
thons in South Florida are recorded to have eaten a variety
of vertebrate prey—birds, mammals, and even an alligator
or two.
Most alligator–python interactions observed in the
Everglades have been the alligator eating the python."

I'm sure the Barkers didn't have access to the info since it's not published yet (but that's the point I'm trying to make: they can't be considered experts ON FLORIDA PYTHONS) but we're into the double digits on the number of times pythons have eaten alligators in FL.

6) "These big adult Burmese pythons are not going to
leave the park and crawl to Miami, although a number of
governmental “authorities” have implied that."

I doubt they will go into Miami. We don't keep track of pythons found east of Krome Ave. I know someone on this forum does to some degree. Maybe he will chime in and tell us how many he has found in suburban areas. I'm not sure if they are in Miami-proper, but they do leave the park sometimes and end up on private land.

7) "These big
snakes don’t move far. "

We had a translocated snake move over 40 miles within a few months. It's not uncommon for pythons to move 5-10 miles at the start of the rainy season.

8) "But, in turn, pythons will
likely be identified as significant predators of feral cats
and young feral hogs, both identified as detrimental inva-
sive species in the Everglades."

So far, in our research (not counting the results from the "Dietary Habits of Burmese Pythons" paper by Brien et. al (because I don't have it in front of me), there has been 1 feral cat and there have been no hogs found in the gut contents of pythons that we have examined. I believe the Brien et al. paper may have had a cat or two but it didn't have any hogs.

9) " Just as iguanas in Miami are
harvested for meat, many cultures consider python to be a
delicacy."

Well, from what I hear, the mercury levels are pretty high so we'll see how that goes.

10) "Two Key Largo woodrats were found in
the stomach of a Burmese python that
somehow had gotten from mainland Florida
several miles across Florida Bay to Key
Largo. "

More than two have been found.

11) " If Key Largo woodrats are
truly important and if we want future generations of kids
and biologists to be able to experience them as living
creatures, then it is time to catch every last one of them
and put them in cages with exercise wheels; create two or
three colonies, each managed by a commercial rodent
breeder; remove the endangered status; and let them be
commercially bred."

There is already a captive breeding program in place for Neotoma.

12) "On the other hand, if these rats are left in their (semi-)
wild state, they are doomed. They will go extinct."

So they are saying that pythons WILL cause environmental harm? Then they are admitting that they are invasive species by the definition they provided!

13) "In the natural range of the Burmese python there are a
number of small and medium-sized wild feline species.
Based on captive behavior and stomach-content analysis
of wild Florida pythons, there seems no doubt that in their
native range Burmese pythons eat cats—they may be cat
specialists."

That's funny. Earlier in the paper they said they don't know of any diet studies done in the native range of Burmese pythons! Pythons are not cat specialists. They are GENERALISTS. Talk about a biased statement by the Barkers.

14) "Python Pete is a publicity stunt."

Python Pete was a volunteer effort by a park employee... not part of funded research. He did show potential and my OPINION is that dogs can be trained to find pythons.

15) "It seems a curious coincidence that one of the persons
who will benefit the most from federal funding to fight the
python problem would be the one passenger in the heli-
copter flying over the enormity of the ENP that just hap-
pened to pass right over this very bizarre
scene. Dr. Skip Snow, the National Park
Service biologist stationed in the Ever-
glades and the on-site biologist most in-
volved with Burmese pythons, and pilot
Mike Barron happened to notice the car-
casses as they flew over the swamp. After
making this absolutely extraordinary dis-
covery, they flew back to base and re-
trieved a National Geographic photogra-
pher who was apparently just waiting around until some-
one could find him something to shoot. They returned
and took the photos that shook the Internet. Never before
have pictures of two dead rotting animals been so popular
online."

This is a horrible paragraph, illustrating that THE BARKERS ARE NOT EXPERTS ON THE FLORIDA PYTHON SITUATION. Skip Snow was not in the helicopter when the "exploding python" was found. Mike Barron, the pilot, was with another researcher from a nearby university and he came back for Skip later. Skip does not have a Ph.D. and should not be referred to as "Dr. Skip Snow." The photographs were not taken by a National Geographic photographer. They were taken by Mike Barron, the pilot. Since they were taken with a camera owned by the national park service, the pictures were public domain and anyone (including National Geographic) was free to use them (for free, much to Mike Barron's disappointment!!!).

16) "We can find no mention of the proximity of the
crime scene to a road, but perhaps the python ate a road-
killed gator? It might have been a smaller gator killed by
a larger gator.
Of course, it’s also possible that some prankster stuck
the nose of a road-killed gator in a gash into the body
cavity of a dead python and positioned it on an exposed
bank along a flight path."

That prankster must be really persistent and really good because we keep finding pythons with gators inside them!

17) "Are the Burmese pythons in South Florida pets that
were released by irresponsible pet owners?"

"Considering that the Miami metropolitan area has a
population of millions of people, is one of the two main
ports of entry in the USA for imported exotic reptiles, has
more exotic animal dealers and distributors than any other
city, that keeping reptiles is particularly popular in South
Florida, and that all of this is right next door to ENP, it
certainly seems possible that a half-dozen snakes every
decade could have ended up in the wilds of South Florida."

They answered their own question. Nobody is saying that every snake out there now was once a pet. I believe the media has misunderstood the issue and said that before, but biologists certainly don't believe that. I mean, I just posted a pic of a wild python nest. OBVIOUSLY, they are breeding out there. The point is that the pet trade is ULTIMATELY responsible, whether it was a hurricane damaging a breeder's facilities or whether it was an individual that released some snakes. I would LOVE for a pet industry person to admit there is a problem. Maybe if the pet trade would police itself the government wouldn't feel like it has to step in and do the policing. There IS a problem. I don't like it. I like keeping pets. But there IS a problem. I could start a thread called "Post all the escapees you've found outside of a certain south FL reptile distributor..." Would it be enough evidence once people started posting all their pics? My old roommate found 5 ball pythons and 1 rainbow boa in one night there. WHY DOESN'T ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CONTINUE KEEPING HERPS POINT A FINGER AT ESTABLISHMENTS LIKE THIS AND PRESSURE THEM TO CLEAN UP THEIR ACT!!!

And I say that as someone that wants to keep venomous snakes. And lots of them. I understand the concept of snowballing legislation and I understand that I, too, may be affected by the legislation that might come from the python problem.

That's all for now. There are still several pages of the paper left to address but I'll have to come back to it.

Mike

The quick version.

The Barkers paper did not limit their remarks to the area within the ENP boundaries but referenced to the entire region that is defined as the everglade's. While some of your criticism may warrant some merit other portions are severely compromised by your selective segregation of region in question and its contextual meaning.

Note: Everglades National Park and in adjacent areas of South Florida. Everglades National Park (ENP) is a huge place. The park itself is more than 1.5 million acres, larger than the state of Delaware. Most of the park is accessible only by helicopter or airboat. It's not only a national park, but
also is recognized as an International Biosphere Reserve,
a World Heritage Site, and a Ramsar Wetland of International
Importance. The climate of South Florida is semi-tropical, hot and muggy in the summer, dry and pleasant in the winter. All
of South Florida, from the Big Cypress Swamp at the Northwest,
north to and including Lake Okeechobee in the center,
and the Atlantic Ridge on which the Miami metropolitan
area sits, is recognized as the Everglades ecoregion or
sometimes as the “historic Everglades,” an area of about 3 million acres.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

That might change the way I would word 2 of the points I would made in that long e-mail where I made many points. And it really doesn't even affect my answers to those 2 points very much.

The idea that pythons would control cat populations in more developed areas of the "greater everglades" is a weak justification for someone trying to say their impact is limited or even beneficial. Pythons MOSTLY inhabit areas where there aren't many people/cats around.

Mike

As I've said before, I'm leaving the Rodda et al. stuff to Rodda et al. to defend.

I have admired the Barkers since I was a kid but that paper was full of errors (see my other reply for a more thorough discussion on that paper).

I've never given you my opinion on the Rodda et al. paper. I have repeatedly said that it is "not my department."

I will admit that my peers do have some influence over what I believe but so do you and everyone else on these forums. I've kept pet snakes for nearly two decades and I defend that interest as much as I defend the work that we do with pythons. I've also been in open disagreement with state and federal authorities regarding policy in ENP. I can (and do) think for myself and voice my opinion.

Let's not forget that when we had this discussion on another forum nearly everyone there came to my defense and said you were the one who was biased.

Mike

" Let's not forget that when we had this discussion on another forum nearly everyone there came to my defense and said you were the one who was biased. "

A quick review of those who opposed me will show that as a collective they had nothing of any relevance to say in terms of the actual subject matter. Also when confronted with basic and direct questions they all failed to produce a single answer, Rather they continued to base thier attacks within the safe confines of ambiguity. I have to say your support group was less then qualified and could certainly benefit from remedial reading and comprehension studies.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I agree that they didn't contribute much but they probably realized that I was the best source of info on FL pythons on that forum and left it to me.

Mike

" I agree that they didn't contribute much but they probably realized that I was the best source of info on FL pythons on that forum and left it to me."

How egotistical. I see it slightly different.

If you recall there was no contention with anything I said in terms of the animal's or the information I presented about them . Even when I requested opposing views. It was all about defending "beliefs " not facts. The few people that took your side did so not because of some perceived expertise on your part but because to them you represented a team mate so to speak. It was a Home court advantage.

And admit it, You know that .........yourself excluded I was the only guy in that conversation that knew what he was talking about.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Egotistical? I'M THE ONLY PERSON ON THAT FORUM WHO IS ON THE PYTHON PROJECT. Actually, I take that back. I think Gordon or Bob (or maybe both) eventually joined that thread and post over there from time to time. Also, flherp (who is also posting here) has an insider's perspective and contributed positively to the conversation. Anyway, I'm not egotistical. I would be the first to recognize many of those individuals as being much more intelligent than I am but I just happen to be the one in the middle of the action when it comes to pythons. As I type this I am surrounded by gut content samples that I've been identifying. Before typing this I was in ENP herping. Tomorrow I'll be back in ENP tracking the snakes. This weekend I'll be scouting areas to look for P. sebae. Maybe you don't understand that I am 100% immersed in what is going on with pythons in FL. And you've already said that you think I'm honest so why are you still debating with me? I'm not trying to destroy the pet trade. I'm just trying to educate people on ideas that are not very controversial. There ARE a lot of pythons out there and it IS a problem. There is no controversy there. Keep in mind... a couple years ago people were accusing us of fabricating the python problem... entirely. People said... "well, it seems that only government types are finding them" or something like that. Now people are saying... "oh, these numbers are bogus... there are probably only 1,000 pythons out there." There are honest people working on this project and I consider myself to be one of them. You can continue to insult me and call me an idiot or you can start listening to me. Your choice.

By the way, I think this quote from that thread sums up what happened over there pretty nicely:

"Ernie coming from someone who likes the Barkers and thinks the initial Rhodda paper was complete crap, please STFU!!! You are taking up the side of defending the Barkers and the herp community and you are failing and sounding like an ignorant uninformed idiot. If you think any of your post have helped anybody come to your side you are mistaken."

I haven't heard anyone on either forum insult me yet... except for you.

Mike

Wow. I haven't checked back here in a while and did not realize how heated everything was getting.

Funny thing though, I do remember hearing about the pythons being a hoax a few years back. I also don't like how people generalize scientists as all being wrong... that just doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

The way I have been seeing it is that yes the government is using fear tactics with the media, but its kind of like doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. There is a huge problem with burmese pythons, that is a fact, and for someone to say we should let the wild populations of native species go extinct is silly. Most people are not going to get riled up over an endangered species so instead the media reports every accident of a snake harming someone.

I can relate this to a problem here in Louisiana, my teacher used this analogy... We are losing the wetlands at an alarming rate, partly from human causes, but the federal government isn't going to give us money because not enough people care in the country. If we were to suddenly report that Louisiana will have a shrimp shortage because of wetland loss then people will probably care more, even if that is only a small part of the bigger problem.

Back to snakes.

The Barkers may be experts on the captive care of pythons but they are not ecologists and do not understand the relationships between species the same way someone with a degree does.

Mike does sound like he knows what he is talking about, just from the few posts I have read. Everyone has some bias but sometimes people should step back and look at how our actions are going to affect us later on. Biodiversity is important to the stability of entire ecosystems and it is not a good thing to just let species die off because you want a new morph of python.

" The Barkers may be experts on the captive care of pythons but they are not ecologists and do not understand the relationships between species the same way someone with a degree does. "

No offense but........Wow talk about perpetuating a common misconception not only about the Barkers but also about many others you might have preconceived notions about. Dave and Tracy both have strong academic backgrounds including extensive work as field biologist. Do some research you'll be very surprised .

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Yeah, Dave Barker has more degrees than I do and I have no doubt that he is a smart guy. I've read some of the papers he's published and they look pretty good. The self-published paper they did is really the only thing they have done that I object to. Like I've said before, I was a fan of the Barkers from a pretty young age (probably around age 10). Honestly, even without knowing them, I was surprised by the recent Burm paper. It seems out of character (from everything I've seen from them).

Mike

Oops. I had no idea about his degrees, never read it in any of the other posts.

Now you are being a child Mike. Why don't you post my response to that quote. When confronted with simple questions to validate his ridiculous post. The person in question put his tail between his legs and he STFU!!! , proven wrong in every possible way and embarrassed. This person like so many needs to go back and study reading and comprehension 101. Talk about summing up what happened over there.

Flheps post reveal no actual knowledge but are compilation of amateurish observations told from a novice perspective. No doubt a nice guy but he's a total rookie. I don't believe Gordon or Bob had anything to say and if they did they I missed it.

You yourself have been a bit amateurish at times and a shown lack of maturity. Being overly reactive and sensitive is the clearest indicator that this is true. Your last post for example. Its loaded with things that have nothing to do with what I have said or want I have been saying. I like you and I understand your intent, actually I agree with most of what you say but your DEAD wrong on some things, mostly human related issues. Debating animal issues between us has been very limited. For the most part me pointing out things about the fallibility of using unfertilized Ova as way of estimating clutch size, the mythical 107 egg Walls clutch and how its improper to use one-second hand story as a point of validation against another second hand story.

As for the snakes ......when I asked you to present me information that would be more then what a common knowledge assessment by someone with a working knowledge of these animals could predict, Your answer was .............well you had nothing surprising it was all bread and butter and very predictable. Things your learning as your going along that you should have been aware of before the project began! You have yet to show me anything that I didn't already know for along time. Just because these animals weren't on the front page very long doesn't mean some of us didn't already know about them.

Yes, I understand all the reasoning behind what your trying to do etc. You have to understand that what your doing and the things I oppose that some of the others are doing are two different things. Would you PLEASE try to understand this .

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie,

I have yet to insult you myself. I didn't choose that quote to insult you. I chose it because it shows the attitude of everyone who was involved in that thread, even people who like the Barkers. If you'd like though, I can dig through your posts and copy/paste the insults you've flung at me. I don't think that would do any good though. I would post a link to the entire thread from the other forum so people can read the whole thing but I think that violates the terms of service on this site. If it doesn't, I encourage you to post it. I will copy/paste your response though. I don't think it made the person "proven wrong in every possible way and embarrassed."

"I posted the first Barker piece for all to read . Judge for themselves . My only responses regarding the Barkers were directly to what I felt were unfair comments made while attempting to discredit them. I linked to some of their other various works . Pointing out that they do have long and credible backgrounds.

Besides the Gator shot where have I even mentioned anything about the papers they wrote or said that I agreed or disagree with their writings in full . The majority of what I posted has nothing to do with the Barkers.

I have to ask you how much time do you spend in the Glades ? What is the basis of your informed opinion ?

Read : SHELDON KRIMSKY on Corrupted Science at the link below.

http://www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/corrupted-science.htm

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC."

So flherp has a wealth of his own field observations but he doesn't show any real knowledge? That doesn’t make sense. I can guarantee you he is not a "total rookie." If he wants to reveal his identity that's up to him and I'm not going to do it. But, I guarantee he is not a rookie.

I understand the point you are making but others are saying there aren't many pythons out there so I feel like I have to repeat some of that info at times. None of my knowledge is earth-shattering but it is based upon field observations of FL pythons. I fully recognize the Barkers as python experts and admit that they know a lot more than I do about pythons but I have to say that I am more of an expert on BURMS IN FLORIDA. I don't say that to be egotistical. How many gut samples have they looked at? How many pythons have they caught in FL? How much time have they spent radio-tracking burms in FL? How many of the major players in the python project do they know personally? I don't claim to be a genius. I don't even think I'm that smart. But, I happen to have an insider's perspective on this issue due to some good fortune. And I've been keeping pet snakes and searching for them in the wild for nearly 20 years now. I didn't just walk into this job as a total rookie (although I have never bred Burmese pythons so in that regard I guess you could say that I am a rookie). We did have some good conversations about snakes and I concede that you were right about some of the points you made. However, my second-hand story comes straight from the people involved whereas it seems that the Barkers merely tried to piece together what happened by interpreting things from tv/magazines/newspapers. Therefor, I believe my source to be better and more accurate.

Bob and/or Gordon did post in that thread. You may not have realized it because the screen name is not obvious.

I don’t think I’ve been overly-reactive or sensitive. In fact, I’ve received a number of compliments via PM and e-mail for my calm, level-headed approach to our debate on the other forum (and here, to a lesser extent).

Believe it or not, I think we are reaching some common ground and I’m glad we can have these debates. I don’t know that we’ll ever be in total agreement but we’re closer than we were when this started and a lot of other people who may not have formed their opinions yet can read this and make their own decisions based upon the evidence we have laid out. I’m hoping that people will trust me, at least a little bit, and come to me for information if they are skeptical of something they hear on tv or read in the newspaper. I’m not here to lie to anybody or to push an agenda. I’m just trying to get the facts out there because both sides seem to lack credibility right now and nobody knows what to believe anymore. Like I’ve said before, I have no interest in destroying the pet trade. I’ve kept snakes for two decades and I get annoyed by new legislation as much as anyone else, especially since my main interest is rattlesnakes (and I can’t keep any because I don’t have a venomous license). It’s truly annoying. In fact, the idea that a bunch of idiots with an irrational fear of snakes have been able to assert enough influence on lawmakers to keep me (who has been handling these things for years and years) from owning any pisses me off, quite frankly. I’m sure many of you can relate. But, the system in place now is better than a total ban so I don’t complain too much. I just need to get all the paperwork together one of these days. Anyway, I’m on both sides. And this isn’t my alter-ego that nobody at work knows about. I can pretty much guarantee you that my boss has been reading everything I’ve been posting (and I know some other “big wigs” have been following this as well). If everyone were so concerned about pushing an agenda then I would probably be fired by now for sympathizing with people here and saying that the higher figures given for the population estimates could be too high. Or for saying “I would have said that differently” or “I wouldn’t want to be associated with that quote.”

Personally, I hope we have nothing left to argue about because this is incredibly time-consuming. Although I will be happy to contribute information when asked and if I see people making statements that I believe to be untrue I’ll probably try to suggest they reconsider. I hope we’ve established some trust though and we can talk about FL pythons when there are questions/concerns from people without the atmosphere being too hostile/accusatory. Even if others say something inflammatory on tv, it doesn’t mean that I would have said the same thing (or maybe I would, it would be a case-by-case basis) and I can try to give you the solid facts without any “spin.” And, at the end of the day, you’re not forced to believe anything I tell you. I can simply provide information and let people make their own decisions. In most cases, I think debate is healthy and contributes to the learning process. A the end of a debate there has usually been a lot of information presented on both sides and each person is left to come to their own conclusion.

If the last paragraph of your previous post is true then we should be in a position to establish some quality communication between people on this forum and people directly involved in the python project. This removes the layer of confusion added by the media and (if you do trust me) it also removes the layer of confusion added by any perceived/actual agenda of anyone on the python project. Again, at the end of the day, nobody is required to believe anything I say.

It’s getting really late. Gotta get some sleep.

Mike