Reptile & Amphibian Forums

LOL. Thought I double posted didn't you? Here's a clutch of 349 celaenops. These are F1 from the area 10 miles north of Dryden. I collected the male in 2002. A friend of Shannon's collected the female. Shannon aquired her and was gracious enough to loan her to me and she laid four huge eggs this year.

>>LOL. Thought I double posted didn't you? Here's a clutch of 349 celaenops. These are F1 from the area 10 miles north of Dryden. I collected the male in 2002. A friend of Shannon's collected the female. Shannon aquired her and was gracious enough to loan her to me and she laid four huge eggs this year.
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Please elaborate. Both adults are small. In fact, my Ft. Davis milk is larger than both 349 milks. What's the line of demarcation?

just one of those things you can tell by looking at. You can still find annulata looking snakes north and west of Sanderson. There are also some intermediate snakes in those areas, most of them are. Yours are probably intermediate as well with a smaller body size but annulata looking phenotype.

It's another case of splitting hairs. Celaenops evolved in the Chihuahuan Desert and annulata in Tamaulipan thorn scrub. At some point they came together again along the Rio Grande in SW Texas and Mexico.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Celeanops can be one wierd subspecies. Half are long and more taylori/gentilis influenced while half are short, stout and annulata influenced. Then there's those undescribed milks and I've also taken a peak at some unusual milks from the Albany area. Very neat but also very odd at the same time. Maybe I'm crazy or I just don't understand taxonamy enough to get.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Is there some controversy about this? The area where the parent stock is from is almost central Terrell County – I think. According to a relatively recent pictorial tour of triangulum in Texas-see link below, all the Terrell county milks appear to be identified as “celaenops”, not annulata or intergrades, but does say that celaenops intergrades with annulata in the eastern part of it’s range. What gives? Do I have to ask Troy, your resident milksnake expert? LOL.
Link

I am sure that an integrade zone can be broad and the animals that are found in it may look more like one or the other in localized pockets. I also wonder on some of these milks if they are not distinct to begin with since a very gradual shift from one "look" to another "look" which is often all that defines them in the first place.
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If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

and I think it is safe to enlist Troy Hibbitts to decide whether there were any biological inconsistencies since he does have some experience with those animals.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Photography by Joseph E. Forks

the linked photos from Terrell county are clearly sporting the annulata phenotype.... There are a few nice examples of what I consider celaenops in that post, the ones from Brewster, Jeff Davis, and Presidio counties.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Well, if there wasn’t a controversy before, there certainly is one now - lol.

nice clutch of milks!
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Todd Hughes

Yes, that is a nice clutch!! Wouldn't mind having one, whatever they are.
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Kent

That was Nate's post, and I bet he would even agree.

Or better yet, ask Damon or John Fraser. They are as familiar with the snakes right there in that region than anyone.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Let me get this straight. You want me to ask Nathan to agree that the celaenops HE selected for Terrell County in HIS triangulum piece all look like annulata? HAHAHAHA. This is a gag isn’t it? Oh, you got me good. Why do you torment me like this Joe?

Look like annulata yes, but really want I want you to ask anyone about is if the milksnakes in that area are intermediate between annulata and celaenops, which I think most will generally agree that is the case, since you find both phenotypes in that area. The ones photo'd do look more like annulata, and I would call them annualata, but really they are intermediate. Clear as mud?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

My answer will be biased by the fact that I don't prescribe to the notion that there are boundaries between forms of triangulum... rather that the subspecific monikers are holotypically derived snapshots of variation across a large range. The holotypes of many subspecies don't look at all like some of the populations located intermediate to the next subspecific holotype.

That being said I usually refer casually to the milksnakes around Sanderson as celaenops but it's out of habit and tradition... they certainly don't look at all like the "celaenops" I see in New Mexico and for the most part are still very different from the big classic bombers from Freer.

Just call 'em triangulum and you'll be good

I have to agree,locality milks that can be called celaenops or annulata or intergrades as far as I am concerned.

Damon,
You said they don't look much like the ones you see up in New Mexico but aren't most of them up there ful of Gentilis influence?
In the past I have kept and worked with some different locales of milks from New Mexico and they are way more like Gentilis in my book than they are like the celaenops from the Big Bend area.

L8r

"You said they don't look much like the ones you see up in New Mexico but aren't most of them up there full of Gentilis influence?
In the past I have kept and worked with some different locales of milks from New Mexico and they are way more like Gentilis in my book than they are like the celaenops from the Big Bend area."

Honestly, the celaenops in New Mexico transition from examples that are reminiscent of those found in parts of west Texas all the way to specimens similar to textbook gentilis (with some even crazier phenotypic stops on the way). My point was that the holotype for celaenops is from Dona Ana county, NM... so is it that celaenops in New Mexico have gentilis influence, or is it that celaenops in west Texas have annulata influence?

Good ponit.LOL......
Iam sure that several holytypes are from intergrade zones.

L8r

Agreed, I never find a nice annulata down here, He represented those well on that trip, lots of funky looking pure annulata down this way (south and west of me) They NEVER look like this...so far...

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Todd Hughes

most I find down here look like this turd

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Todd Hughes

a bunch of the ones in Tamaulipas look just like that too... so...????
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I like it, fugly as it may seem, it takes a few years to purty them up, but then, what do you really have? Unless they are locality, and even then, the phenotype drifts toward what "we" select for. I love a purty anulatta but really, are they really anulatta? I wish I had your experience on Mehico, it is insightful to have that first hand knowledge. What I WISH they looked like all the time, lol!

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Todd Hughes

These definitely look like annulata, the area around Sanderson is for sure an intergrade zone. You can find animals that look like celaenops or annulata there. I found a 3' male dor about 16 miles west of Sanderson that looked as pure south Texas annulata as you have ever seen. I think the higher elevations tend to resemble celaenops and the lower species look like annulata. The orange one should be really nice when it matures, that would be my hold back. On the flip side if the orange doesn't hold it will go brown and be a good one to release back in the wild haha