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Does anyone have any information on the first known albino pyro? Was the first albino pyro collected? bred? Were albino pyros were achieved by crossing w/something else? I must admit that when I first saw a pyro, I wasn't all that impressed. But now mountain kings, with their incredible "fire-on-black" color pattern are definitely my favorite snakes. In fact, my female pyro with a "zipper" pattern and bright orange/red color is the favorite of all my snakes.
snake adventures

>>Does anyone have any information on the first known albino pyro? Was the first albino pyro collected? bred? Were albino pyros were achieved by crossing w/something else? I must admit that when I first saw a pyro, I wasn't all that impressed. But now mountain kings, with their incredible "fire-on-black" color pattern are definitely my favorite snakes. In fact, my female pyro with a "zipper" pattern and bright orange/red color is the favorite of all my snakes.
>>snake adventures

I don't think i have the energy for a long thread with a debate on this subject (the same discussions are still going on on the king forum re: albino "chain" kings, and on the milksnake forum re: hondurans) , so here's the short answer as I'm aware of it, and i was pretty closely involved:

Brian Barczyk got the originals from a fella in an upper midwestern state who'd had the group that produced them for a long time. At the time there was a state game agent or similar soft of objective, outside-observer individual, who confirmed he'd known about the animals' existence before the albino ruthveni morph could have been crossed to pyros to produce the animals brian got. Additional evidence that influences me: Brian's a very smart guy, and he wouldn't have paid what he did to acquire the group, without thoroughly vetting it.

I believe the pyros are the real thing. Which makes it all the more offensive--my personal opinion here--when people breed them to other species. I've seen an animal for sale at expo as "het for albino pyro", for example, which, when i questioned the seller, was admittedly a hybrid. That owner changed the label when i suggested he do so, but how many others didn't? How many people bought animals thinking they were "as advertised" and got hybrids? It's buyer beware. It's never been more important you know the seller or ask a LOT of hard questions about the animals' origins.

>>"How many people bought animals thinking they were "as advertised" and got hybrids?"

What?,...you mean all snakes and their advertisments aren't always exactly as they say they are???, how can that be?..hahaha!

I just couldn't help myself there Terry!..LOL!

~ Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I've seen an animal for sale at expo as "het for albino pyro", for example, which, when i questioned the seller, was admittedly a hybrid"

Just curios. Are you saying that it was an actual "hybrid" or sub-species cross... Like a amel Pyro into another type of mountain king.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>I've seen an animal for sale at expo as "het for albino pyro", for example, which, when i questioned the seller, was admittedly a hybrid"
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>>Just curios. Are you saying that it was an actual "hybrid" or sub-species cross... Like a amel Pyro into another type of mountain king.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com

I hope I understand how to answer the question. Back then--maybe '06?--people still talked about different pyro ssp. They're mostly lumped together now, right? Regardless, it was not a pyro ssp X different pyro ssp cross, it was a pyro X some other lampropeltis, ruthveni I think but wouldn't swear to it. Wouldn't any and all of those possible crosses make it a hybrid? (whether x zonata or ruthveni or triangulum or...?) I went back through 3 yrs of photo files but unfortunately didn't keep a pic of the snake or container in question.

So if my understanding's correct, yeah, i'll stick with my original "hybrid" assertion. Tell me if i'm wrong.

I'm sure that's exactly what he was asking from what I read.

And yes, the scenario's you just mentioned would be definite hybrids.

If they were say infralabialis x pyro, that at least would still be in the same ballpark. But certainly not a ruthveni x pyro cross. That would be misleading to the 10th power!

Probably fairly easy to discern against a genuine example too.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

TonyD posted this a while back.

Hybrid - prodigy from captive breedings that cross species or generic lines. Example: Jungle corns.

Natural Hybrid - rare but naturally accruing prodigy from breedings that cross species or generic lines. Examples: red X yellow rats in GA.

Crosses - Prodigy from captive breedings that cross sub specific lines. Example: Apalachicola king X eastern king.

Integrade - Prodigy from natural breedings that cross sub specific lines. Example: classic blotched phase goini.

Locality specific - Any animal captive-bred or wc that has a credible claim to the local of original collection.

Purity - Big question mark here as the term is thrown around wily nily. An animal can be locality pure but not taxonomically pure as is the case with intergrades. The most defendable usage of the term that I've come across (in the context of captive breeding) is the "ability to pass a similar suite of characteristics along to the next generation." I think that most would agree that this is something that integrades, crosses and hybrids do not do.

A further note on locality specific is that "locality" has not been given a definition that is widely accepted either. The current, and in my opinion, arbitrary usage of political borders undermines the concept and habitat or geographical features that contribute to population distinctiveness might be better delineators. As an example, instead of Ocean and Burlingtom County NJ coastal plains milk snakes being two distinct localities they would fall under a single (NJ pine barrens) locality which would more accurately reflect natural distribution.
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www.Bluerosy.com