Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, last week when I was out of town my roomate called me and left me a message saying that my 1 yr old, female Retic just had a "seizure". This came as no surprise because she's been having alot of problems recently.

Two weeks ago I took her the vet because she was breathing realy heavily in her upper chest area. She also flipped out outside and started thrashing, violently around to get away, something she's never done before.

The vet did a CBC and said she seemed fine. I took her to the vet today and they took X-rays, ran another CBC and did a blood culture. I should find out more in the next few days. The X-rays were fine they said except for some "bumpy googly gouck", which could be nothing. ( it was in the stomach)

Now whether or not she had a "seizure" or not, I don't know I wasn't here to witness it. The vet doubts it. She most likely was (according to the vet)panicing from complications of breathing. They think she has an upper respitory infection. I've been administering 0.6 mg of Fortaz every 3 days as a precaution, just in case, til they find out whats wrong.

My Q: is, has anybody dealt with these symptoms before? The vets have absoultly no idea whats wrong. Yet. And i'm kinda freaked out. Any ideas?

Here's a little more info on whats been going on in her enviroment...
About 3 months or so ago I had my Ball Python tested for IBD. (600.00 test!) He was showing signs, jerky movements, shaking, etc, as was my female Ball. The test results came back negative and he seems to be getting better, but those two still have jerky movements and sometimes will tip over when exploring the tops of their enclosures. The problem here is they've all been in contact with each other. For months at a time. My Retic isn't showing any signs, but they did live together at one point. I just don't know what's going on, and it's getting outragously expensive, with no diagnosis.

If anybody has any info it would be GREATLY appreciated.

Raymond

p.s sorry so long...

I hate to say it, but if this snake was living with a snake that had IBD, you can almost assume it has IBD too. There's not going to be a lot you can do for it. Sorry about your luck.

my ball tested negative for IBD... so it must be something else i would assume. What it is i dint know.

I misread. I've been doing that lately. Did they test for paramyxovirus?

my ball tested negative for IBD... so it must be something else i would assume. What it is i dint know.

IBD is a viral infection that affects lymphoid, liver, blood and other tissues as well as neurological cells. Its halmark is the observation of inclusion bodies within biopsy tissue cell samples of the liver, esophageal lymphoid "tonsils" as well as by certain abnormalities on blood slides obtained by histology/pathology labs sent out by your vet. Elliot Jacobson DVM at the univ. of FLA in gainsville Fla is doing research on a blood test marker for IBD. I am not privy to whether this will be a PCR assay looking for retrovirus in the serum or whole blood, or an antibody ELISA test looking for immune antibodies against IBD viral proteins etc.

I do suggest that since IBD blood tests are not yet accurate, that you consider
1 endoscopic esophageal tonsil biopsy for inclusion bodies
2 regardless, quarantine of your and your friends collections without selling animals for at least a few years until you have this all sorted out, otherwise you could infect multiple collections,
3 that you contact elliot at UF gainsville and ask about trials of IBD testing
4 that you consider alternative testing for IBD for your ball pythons and others with vague symptoms

I personally have never had an IBD scare, but have read and heard lectures about it recently.

If i personally had an IBD scare, i would not sell or trade or acquire any animals for a year or more until i could sort these issues out.

Winslow

Not to come across as harsh or condescending by any means, but I have some questions after browsing through the series of posts you have made on your retic and the ongoing medical problems you are experiencing.

What is your enclosure like? ie..wood,glass, screens(how much?) Do you cycle the heat?
How are you heating it? What are the temps(High and Low end)?
What is the substrate?
Does the cage sit in front of windows,doorways, or floor(causing it to be subject to temp. variants /-)?

Retics are just not this hard to keep, and Im more prone to questions caging and setups as your source of problem in health and behavior. Medicaton cannot fix the the health problem, if the factors that might create them continue. Again, Im not trying to criticize you, only help you to enjoy the wonderful species you have opted to keep.
Notah

no offense taken. I should have been a little more detailed in my post.

To answer your Q's:

* She's in a glass enclosure, with wire mesh screen

* Cycling heat? I've never heard of that. How is it done?

* Her substrate is CareFresh bedding

* She's heated by a 24 hr a day, infared, 150 watt heat bulb

* Temps are: Hot side- 85-90 degrees Cool side- 77-80 degrees
(she has a humidity box on her hot side with the humidity @
a steady 80-90%, 40% on cool side)

* She's not by any doorways, windows, etc. She is in my bedroom
with my air conditioner on most of the day. But I wouldn't
think that would have a negative effect because her enclosure
temps are good.

Hope this has given you more insight on her living situation.

no offense taken. I should have been a little more detailed in my post.

To answer your Q's:

* She's in a glass enclosure, with wire mesh screen

* Cycling heat? I've never heard of that. How is it done?

* Her substrate is CareFresh bedding

* She's heated by a 24 hr a day, infared, 150 watt heat bulb

* Temps are: Hot side- 85-90 degrees Cool side- 77-80 degrees
(she has a humidity box on her hot side with the humidity @
a steady 80-90%, 40% on cool side)

* She's not by any doorways, windows, etc. She is in my bedroom
with my air conditioner on most of the day. But I wouldn't
think that would have a negative effect because her enclosure
temps are good.

Hope this has given you more insight on her living situation.

Well I have a few suggestions, though I cannot guarantee that it will fix the problem, it will definately help in treatment
Althoug there was no size dimensions on the glass enclosure, I can recommend the following things.

1- Replace the screen top with a sold piece of laminate wood,
cut it to fit on the inner lip of what I am assuming is an
aquarium. Drill about 5-6 3/8" holes in the top for
ventilation. Screens allow to much uncontrolled draft, as
well as allowing cage temps to vary significantly, in
addition to being poor barriers for holding humidity.
This will also allow you to free up cage space by getting
rid of the humidity box
SCREENS DO NOT HOLD THE TROPICAL CONDITIONS (ie HUMDITY OR TEMPS)NECCESSARY FOR MOST PYTHONS AND BOAS
2- Wire a ceramic light socket into the bottom of the new wood
lid. Its very simple wiring you cannot go wrong, use an
extension cord with the female end cut off, drill a hole
and feed it thruogh then attach. This will allow you to
cut the high bulb wattage. In a 45 gal tank. a 25-30
watt light should be sufficient. Although sick; on a healthy
retic, aim for an ambient H temp of 83-85, you can figure
direct basking under the light will be about 4 degrees higher
Your low end should be around 77-75. Retics I have found
tend to like it cooler than other large tropical boidae.
3- Put her on newspaper until she is well, then if you want to
go back to bedding fine. It could be the bedding dust
is aggravating the condition. Paper is typically fairly
sterile, dust free and easy to clean. Right now your goal
should be as minimal and sterile as possible. This cannot be
achieved with bedding.

Last notes. To high of a temperature(which burns up cage humidity and in screen tops allow it to escape) can result in irritation of lung and throat linings leading to resp. infections as well, especially if combined with irritant dust pariticles. Commonly we associate resp. problems with "colds", but this is not always the case. Although you offer a humidity box, it was stated that it was under the hot end of the enclosure, and retics are not big fans of heat typically. Mine most often hang out in the mid cage which sits at the 78-80F range, though 85 is always available ambient, as well as cool end temps. This could lead to her not using it, as it is too warm. So she sits in the area she wants, but can still be to be subject to draft. Drafts are hard to pinpoint in a cage, and you wrote that your room is AC'd. A draft could be coming into the cage in a direction that is not noticable or discernable, which again would prolong health problem as well as impede treatment. The solid lid described above will remedy this problem, cut your electric output on the cage heat, and free up cage space by allowing you to remove the humidity box. though she may like to keep it just for a hide spot. Place it just offset the heat. I hope this information and shared experience helps you, feel free to contact me privately or on here if you wish. Hope she gets better.
Notah Howe

I don't really have any suggestions or solutions for your problem, but I do have a question. I thought IBD could only be confirmed during a necropsy AFTER the snake was dead. Am I mistaken?
-----
Bill

it used to be that way. My vet knows some scientist lafy that can do a test with pretty good accuracy while still alive. The backdraw is the 600.00 price tag...

not true, it can be diagnosed by esophageal tonsillar biopsy, stomach lining biopsy, or by liver biopsy in living snakes.
Suspicious changes can also be found in blood analysis, but definitive testing is underway via elliot jacobson at u of Fla. as noted above. Other diseases can mimic IBD such as certian parasitic infestations that have larval stages that can migrate such as strongyloides, etc as well as other viral infections that cause encephalitis including west nile now affecting gators in GA and down south.

Winslow