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Bill Love gave me some info on the first hypo hondos, I think I posted his response after people stopped following the thread several days ago.

So for Bill's opinion on whether hypo hondurans are hondurensis, see:
bill love on first hypo hondo

so the hondurans that produced the hypos were from a barrel of imports imported mainly from honduras, but other "races" could have been mixed in, then chosen by looks as the best looking by commercial breeders. hmmmm ok thanks for posting that.
now do any splitters wanna talk about purity in morphs at least hypo CA milksnakes AKA hondos? how is that ok for purist but a fla.king and e.king is a mutt? or a bull and a pine? or a nelsons and a sinaloan! splitters want it both ways thus the abomination offspring of taxonomy and marketing is still alive and well, when it benefits them anyway.
,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If I'm reading this correctly, Terry Dunham's discussion with Bill Love only shows again that the morphs (albinos, anerys, and now hypos) of what breeders are calling "Hondurans" in the hobby today aren't actually L.t.hondurensis at all, but instead are intergrades between two or more subspecies.

Below in the post "What species?", Doug Mong and Shannon Brown discussed how the first anery "Hondurans" keyed more to L.t.stuarti and how the first albino "Hondurans" keyed more to L.t.polyzona. And so now the hypo morph is also questionable as pure? I think that is what most were trying to say in that post below in the first place about "Hondurans" in the hobby today.

I don't think anyone that is a scientist, taxonomist, purist, or splitter has ever claimed that the "Honduran" morphs (albinos, anerys, and hypos) in the hobby today are pure, or ever were. Some hobbyists/breeders do because if they marketed them as the intergrades or crosses they are, no one would want to buy them. Kind of like a Heinz 57 mix.

Wouldn't it be nice if someday there were available locality, pure L.t.hondurensis?

Scott

>>>Some hobbyists/breeders do because if they marketed them as the intergrades or crosses they are, no one would want to buy them.

i see so that makes it OK.
alot of those very people outwardly attack folks who are upfront with their crosses saying things like mutts,etc. that just seems very hypocritical to me.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>so the hondurans that produced the hypos were from a barrel of imports imported mainly from honduras, but other "races" could have been mixed in, then chosen by looks as the best looking by commercial breeders. hmmmm ok thanks for posting that.
>>now do any splitters wanna talk about purity in morphs at least hypo CA milksnakes AKA hondos? how is that ok for purist but a fla.king and e.king is a mutt? or a bull and a pine? or a nelsons and a sinaloan! splitters want it both ways thus the abomination offspring of taxonomy and marketing is still alive and well, when it benefits them anyway.

wow, seems like something in bill's recollection agitated you. I don't care what the conclusion of these discussions is, so long as it's sorta based on objectivity. But your summary of Bill's comments don't seem to reflect what he said. And his comments have nothing to do with fla and e kings, or bulls and pines? How'd we go there?

the point i was TRYING to make is many puritans keep and breed,advertise , and sell "hondos" and i find it ironic that with the history behind them how thats ok/acceptable that they are crosses but across the board crosses are frowned on.
nevermind i see how it is.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It's because some of the "centrals" are tough to discern anyway, they weren't crossed on purpose from the get-go, whereas LOTS of stuff now IS crossed on purpose, see the diff???

simple as that bro!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thomas,

You sound like FR Jr.!

Not only are you trying to pick fights based on lame, sketchy theories, but you also continue to push the assumption that if you don't know a snake's origin and/or complete genetic history, then it must be a hybrid or intergrade.

Then you try to extrapolate that into some sort of justification for making hybrids. I don't think most people buy into that nonsense.

Tim

>>>You sound like FR Jr.!

>thanks tim means alot coming from you.

>>>Not only are you trying to pick fights based on lame, sketchy theories, but you also continue to push the assumption that if you don't know a snake's origin and/or complete genetic history, then it must be a hybrid or intergrade.

> i havnt picked a fight, just stating my viewpoint, the fact is if you dont know your snakes origins it/they very well maybe a hybrid or shall i say whats considered a hybrid by some. like your morph hondos or ANY hondos for that matter. are you saying they are "pure" l.t.hondurensis?
hey everybody tims got hybrids!lmao...

>>>Then you try to extrapolate that into some sort of justification for making hybrids. I don't think most people buy into that nonsense.

>no no no i am justifying nothing tim i make hybrids because i like to see what can be done at least im honest about it unlike many here.
you cant dance either.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"i havnt picked a fight, just stating my viewpoint,"

Ummm no, you're trying to start something. Anyone can see that.

" the fact is if you dont know your snakes origins it/they very well maybe a hybrid or shall i say whats considered a hybrid"

Ummmm no, that's not a fact. It's an assumption. You base your arguements on assumptions to try to build a false theory.

"are you saying they are "pure" l.t.hondurensis?"

Nope. "Pure" is a relative word. They could very well be intergrades. But to assume that they're hybrids is quite an assumption. And to try to tie that into an "everything's a hybrid, so why not make more" is the kind of FR theory that shows an extraordinary lack of evidence to blatantly promote the hybrids you make.

"hey everybody tims got hybrids!lmao... "

Another assumption with no proof whatsover to back it up. This summer I caught and bred Santa Cruz Garter Snakes (found 20 feet apart from another). Can you prove that they're hybrids?

Tim

>>>Nope. "Pure" is a relative word. They could very well be intergrades.

yet you market them as hondurans, nuff said.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis

PS nice garters!
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You seem to be forgetting that you called them Honduran Milksnakes in your March 2009 article in "Reptiles" magazine.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

'nuff said!

Tim

No, I don't recall any of this total nonsense in that article either!..hahaha!

point well done,....this whole thing is totally absurd to say the VERY least...............AGAIN!

Hell, I hardly bother anymore. Like trying to convince a monkey that his image in a mirror is not actually himself.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>... Like trying to convince a monkey that his image in a mirror is not actually himself.

hey. wait! how'd you get that picture of me? and i was worrying about geotagged pictures being big-brotherish.

I did some deep lineage tracing from your geneology to get that mug-shot of you!..LOL!

I wish there were a few more interesting forum topics other than this continuous ongoing saga......really!

You'll always be one of the logical gang in my book!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

actually tim that was part of the article that was cut by them. i did mention how most if not all hondos in hobby were/are crosses.
you still cant dance.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If you call not dancing well founded interpretations of the text you've been laying out these past few days. Just to verify: I happen to like hybrids, but I'm not a breeder. Please tell me though, as I'm not familiar with your collections: Do you sell your hondurans as 'hondurans' or 'possible hybrid L.t.sp that are orange and banded'? if you had nelsons and sinaloans what would you call an 'intergrade' in the classifieds? You would be true to the colloquial names right? because no one would buy something that looked like a sinaloan/nelsons that isn't either (in the rest of the community's view). I assume that you keep good records like any good breeder/hobbyist, what have you called all these things in the past? what will you call them in the future? I think both sides are equally nit-picky, but in the end names are just tools to communicate where we got these snakes from and what we can expect them to look like when we breed them. I'd expect certain autapomorphies when I breed hondurans, sinaloans, nelsons, etc.

>>>If you call not dancing well founded interpretations of the text you've been laying out these past few days.

>i understand my interpretations just fine. and i can see already you SO cant dance!

>>>Just to verify: I happen to like hybrids, but I'm not a breeder. Please tell me though, as I'm not familiar with your collections: Do you sell your hondurans as 'hondurans' or 'possible hybrid L.t.sp that are orange and banded'?

>i sell them as hondos and explain to my customers the reason there are so many looks is the mixing of ssp./ naturally occuring phenotypical changes across large ranges,etc. most dont care.

>>>if you had nelsons and sinaloans what would you call an 'intergrade' in the classifieds? You would be true to the colloquial names right? because no one would buy something that looked like a sinaloan/nelsons that isn't either (in the rest of the community's view).

>ive had them both i call them what they are nelson/sinaloan milksnakes. i dont really care what the "communitys" view is in the case of what i produce or sell. again most of my customers dont care.

>>>I assume that you keep good records like any good breeder/hobbyist, what have you called all these things in the past?

>yes i keep good records?wtf kinda question is that?!?!?!! i will call them what i feel they are SNAKES!!!

>>>what will you call them in the future?

>what i feel they are SNAKES!!!

>>>I think both sides are equally nit-picky, but in the end names are just tools to communicate where we got these snakes from and what we can expect them to look like when we breed them. I'd expect certain autapomorphies when I breed hondurans, sinaloans, nelsons, etc.

>well good for you welcome to the snake hobby and good luck in all your endevours.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

heres a few of mine

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

ive had them both i call them what they are nelson/sinaloan milksnakes. i dont really care what the "communitys" view is in the case of what i produce or sell. again most of my customers dont care.

To clarify, did you breed 'sinaloans' to 'nelsons' or did you keep them separate in your collection? That's what I was asking. I'm not accusing, I'm just curious.
And the comment about your education (not saying it's bad, just that public education system is not the greatest) was directly precipitated from your misuse (which is very common among people who would also attempt to insinuate science as a belief system, which it is not) of the term 'theory'. NOT MEANT AS A PERSONAL JAB.

you SOOOOOOO cant dance at all!!!

>>>which is very common among people who would also attempt to insinuate science as a belief system, which it is not
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,

I think it's cute that you have a "manly" hobby like dancing. I think it's a big egotistical that you view yourself as a "dance dictator" telling who can and cannot dance - especially when you're not very good at it yourself (though you do seem pretty good at posting videos of other poeple's work).

But get this: Being able to dance isn't as important as telling the truth.

Tim

>>>But get this: Being able to dance isn't as important as telling the truth.

what so now im a LIAR tim!!! i always tell the truth just like i always state MY opinion. im entitled get over it, just because you cant dance dont attack my character by saying i dont tell the truth, geez.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

you still didn't answer my question. Just jumped to a fact that you probably thought of as attack.
Please answer my question, or is it that you are dodging it to avoid appearing hypocritical?

You're potentially wasting your time, here. You're unlikely to get a coherrent response. This will also probably get deleted.

-Cole

oh im coherrant cole
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

i dont breed and sell nelson/sinaloan milks i only have 1 pair right now. but yes i have kept and bred them years ago and yes like type animals produce like type animals. small phenotypical differances are not imho reason enough to warrant ssp. classification thats my opinion, hope that answered your question.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thank you, now I know!

>> "small phenotypical differances are not imho reason enough to warrant ssp. classification thats my opinion"

Okay, could you please tell us all at exactly what point there is enough difference in an animal to warrant subspecific classification?

I would be very interested in this, because it's sort of a "grayish" are to me, and other's I'm sure.

But please don't get distracted by any of the other previous stuff, just please answer my one simple question....."at what point" in "your honest opinion" does it become warranted?

Thanks for all your help.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>>But please don't get distracted by any of the other previous stuff, just please answer my one simple question....."at what point" in "your honest opinion" does it become warranted?

scalation, geographic isolation, looks to a degree, etc. i dont feel its warranted when animals share range and 1 pop has a few more rings or spots or whatever like in the case of nelson/sinaloan, or in kings splendida/holbrooki/nigra or fla./eastern/goini what can i say im a lumper and it goes against traditional taxa but its my opinion and im entitled to state it without the attacks. this isnt something i just thought of ive studied these animals all my life just like you and in the end it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT WE THINK THEY ARE. hope that answered your ONE question.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

The funny thing is people would get downright offended if you said Honduran morpsh were Hybrids WHEN THEY WERE WORTH BIG BUCKS. Now that they aren't........well they're just Hondos. That's just awesome..........
Takes the cake.......
disgusting
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

comes a voice of reason, what i find disgusting is alot of the puritans who attack the hybridizers are the same ones that started it all, and all in the name of marketing and money but that makes it ok/acceptable, after all they are just snakes sad,sad,sad.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Is there any proof whatsovever that Honduran morphs are hybrids?
Isn't one milk snake being crossed to another considered an intergrade?
Just trying to get everyone on the same page with terminology.

Tim

Yeah, I am not sure how the hybrid theory even got thrown in the mix.NOBODY ever called them hybrids that I know of and that would indicate that they had some cornsnake or bullsnake in them or something.
I am not a fan of any man made cross suck as corndurans or turbo blister mosaic jurrasic peanut buter and jelly squarpants deluxe but at this time even the taxonomy is up in the air on the polyzona/abnorma/hondurensis etc.....and soon they may al be thrown under the bus and just called polyzona.

Whatever comes of it is fine with me I will still keep and breed all the fancy looking morphs and we will probably never know for sure if the first hypos where pure hondurensis or not but at this stage in the game it really doesn't even mater does it?

L8r Shannon

Exactly,.......it doesn't take a real "Einstein" to see any of this either, some folks would complain if you hung them with a brand new rope!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have loved Hondurans for many years, morphs and normals. I remember quite a few years ago this topic coming up a few times and people insisting that none were Hybrids, and that the initial story with it's doubts was thought to be wrong, and brought on the suspicion anyway.
If you recall some guys who worked with Hondurans when they were expensive bailed on them, selling off their adults for pricing under what hatchlings went for the previous year. I never heard those fellows taking this subject so lightly.
Now the story is different,.,...and it seems as of late they're not Hondurans anymore, they're Hondos?
I exclude the grand master of Hondurans from this reply, I can not name names but he in many peoples opinion was the first and best guy to go to and I always liked him and still do.
My point is when these snakes were much more expensive people would be offended if you mentioned Hybrid concerning Hondurans. Now that most are down to the low end of pricing I get the feeling people are more comfortable with letting their doubts become public.... I get very irritated because some of these guys were always pointing the finger at other types of snakes... like THOSE were the Hybrids, not their precious Milks.
I stood my ground with what I had learned about Hondurans and histories of morphs.,,,, but now I won't waste my breath,,, seems nothing is certain now
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Tom

What have Hondurans been hybridized with?
The name "Hondo" is short for Honduran.
We've been saying that for nearly 20 years around here.

I understand that people have bailed on Hondurans. They've bailed on Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos too. That does not mean that those reptiles are hybrids.

I agree that some of the Honduran morphs may have been derived from intergrades (which may have been happening in nature anyway). But a naturally occurring intergrade and a man-made hybrid are two different things.

Insinuating that Honduran morphs are hybrids without anything to back it up simply isn't very honest.

Tim

Tim, I never said that I had suspicions myself...if I did I never would have spent a small fortune on the snakes in the first place.
What I had heard about, and read in a popular magazine was that the orignal Albinos were possibly Polyzona...but after this n that it was clarified and they were not...they were Hondurans. People working with them would get very pissy when this topic came up.
Then there were aberrant patterns...which were picked on as not reproduceable and then after taking a beating it seems some are genetic and can be reproduced...
As Vanshing Patterns came into play what was considered a Vanishing initially was not anymore because others made better ones...
This discussion on Hypos is new to me...
Any comments I made came from what I get out of others peoples posts on here. I am not saying "i discovered that anything is a Hybrid"... what pisses me off is when the snakes were worth high dollar people were defensive about all of this....now the prices fell and suddenly that defensive attitude is not what it used ot be. Concerning Albinos...well it seems to go back n forth with they are or arent.
Email me if you like...and I will tell you a real doozy of a rumor, and it came from someone who has no commercial interest in making money from snakes...
If you ask me? Honestly I dont know what to think anymore. When I had a few grand to blow........the last word thrown into any conversation about Hondurans was Hybrid...which is why I said breeders were very defensive about this. I just dont feel that vibe anymore..
I have read on this forum some feel the blood in Honduran morphs is "mixed"
You know I work with sub species crosses. I know what they are and I label them as they should be. I prefer integrade in this sense but most will just say Hybrids. If you think that someone should not be too iritated by the fact a snake is an intergreade as opposed to a hybrid? I am not sure many will agree.
I am done with this thread... I didnt even produce any Hondurans this season.
I know Hondo is short for Honduran Tim, but I have heard a few people throw that term around as an easy out to not be forced to stand their ground on the hybrid or not topic. Email me if you like
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

I definitely agree with alot of what you are trying to say here too, but the real bottom line is the snakes in question are really the furthest thing from a hybrid as you can get. Many(not all) are simply a very closely related subspecific intergraded animal at most. And many have been just this for quite a while now. This is no big deal, or any surprise to me at all, it's just simple common sense. Some in the hobby are certainly more or less a certain percentage of any possible combination one way or the other too, again, just simple common reasoning here to me.

Whatever the case, they are what they are, and it is no big mystery. And I see the same guy's over and over again continue to bicker about this from both sides of the "fence", and can't even keep track of which way they want to argue about this, that is what really tends to urk me the most. Some just want to keep the the "mud-sling" alive and well for as long as they can.

Hybrids, no,....very possible to definite closely related intergrades,...certainly. So what's left to argue about? Not much in my opinion. Know what I mean?

If they all get classified together with the polyzona tag, fine with me too, none of this matters to me in the least. If people want to argue just for the sake of arguing, there are PLENTY of other areas in the herp hobby that would warrant more attention than these "Hondo's" every did in ten lifetimes.

later, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Look Doug, we are close to agreeing

I do not consider sub species crosses the same thing as Hybrids, not me, no I do not.

However, when I call some of my crosses "crosses" they get slammed as Hybrids. I am talking about 2 Kings from the same freakin state that happens to be a peninsula.

That has nothing to do with what I said here. To be clear I am not saying Hondurans were crossed into Kings or Pits, I mean other species of Milks. Still.... many consider those Hybrids.

If I told the forum things I have heard this place would get turned inside out and no one needs that.

I want to be clear. I did not wake up today and decide Honduran morphs are Hybrids. I am venting on what I have seen this forum lean towards as far as opinion. If no one wants to agree with me that's fine. The truth is I have no idea who to believe anymore.
Tom
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Understood,...I know exactly what you mean.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

You can believe me Tom, you produce some awesome snakes! And as for pure? That is why I don't work with Central and South American milks, can't go out and get them myself, but I do have some thayeri, which are/can be as big a can of worms. I think the milks are awesome to behold, like the thayeri, but as far as being pure? Well, they are all pure snakes, that's as far as I'm willing to go, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Tom I didn't get the impression you were talking about me in paticular but I just wanted to say that I call them hondos only as a slang or short version for hondurans. I figure when I say hondos people know what I'm talking about.
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Randy Whittington

No way Jose, honestly I wish I stayed out of this.
This was not about how I suspect ANYTHING, its the impressions left with me on some comments on this forum which seemed to have changed [in my opinion of course] in the past year or so.
I always called them Hondos too, as in short for...

It's times like this I wish I listened more to Tim Gebhard at Vivid Reptiles.... one of the few purists I really trust

I think your Hondurans are some of the best.

I am just saying, when Hondurans were expensive you'd hear a record scratch if you started the polyzona discussion and those who questioned purity were shot down hard and fast. I do not see this defensive attitude much anymore, which coincides with dropping prices? Seems odd to me.

I find this type of discussion amusing on all forums. Even if you catch a snake in the wild its purity is now doubted? Now even imports may not be what they're supposed to be? There's ALWAYS questions we in most cases can not answer.

I love Hondurans, I intended to stick with them but have been soured on the whole scene for a few years already. I love the pics, morphs normals whatever... but when the Snows crashed it dragged most other morphs with it... why should Extreme Tri Color Hypos for example lose their wow factor and be priced like a regular Hypo? Cause Snows crashed? Has nothing do with it??? Its a shame, I think YOU are a great example of what can be done with Hondos,,,,those VPs you have are amazing
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

no i am NOT buying you a beer. daniel pashayan(no wonder you choose a screen name) roflmao, id love to discuss a few things with you aug.2010
i'll be there man...
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

So what's wrong with my name? It's better than than two first names but I guess Davis goes both ways just like nevermind. That's enough talk about texas, unless your talking about the Arlington show in march? I think it's march. I'll be there and so will so hognose breeders I met in daytona. Real cool bunch of guys. Thanks Daniel Pashayan.

PS.. Oh I can dance!! Lol
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

i will be a vendor at the ETHS show info is at eths.org the show is oct.9,10,11 in houston and i would love to chat about semantics. i may go to the show up there in march as well i havnt been to that one yet.,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com