Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For the sheer sake of getting this back to something productive... I believe it was Terry D that asked what the most attractive triangulum ssp. is... or something to that effect anyhow. So I'm going to offer my two cents, I encourage others to do the same. Oh and in the interest of hospitality our getula brethren may interject their two cents here as well...

My thought plain and simple if I had to choose just one NA milk subspecies I'd have to go with geographically distinct syspila east of the Mississippi ranging from southern IL into KY and even MS. Hands down they can have some smoking animals! Now frankly I tend to prefer some locale or another of each and a few in general a well. 'Temporalis', elapsoides, and nominate triangulum all hold even ranks with me. As with these as syspila I tend to gravitate toward specific ranges as well. I think it's insanely difficult to just hammer one down... just as well I am motivated to take some new pics and get back to appreciating my hobby! For now here are some old ones... nothing new in the bunch I'm afraid but I'll be working on that here in the next few days.

Any takers? What's your favorite form of lampropeltis?

Chris

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Think I need a photobucket account...

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Nice series Chris. Its hard for me to say what is my favorite milk but I think it would have to be either a nice classic southern MD coastal plains like you don't see anymore and a nice clean Mexican milk. Annulatta was my first "exotic" snake.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

ENVY ENVY ENVY ENVY;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Awesome animals Chris. Guess ya cannot start the Scarlets out on fuzzies huh. Damn they are little when hatched.

Hey Chris,
Beautiful collection! I really like the elapsoides
and Amaura you have. Especially that New Orleans
Parish animal. Nice photo of the Celaenops. How are they
doing for you? I was at Ted Thompson's place last month
and saw the pair that he has. His are turning out very nicely.
I wish I had held back a female from that clutch, oh well.
My pair produced two clutches this season, now all I have to do
is get them all eating. Once again nice milks!
-Phil

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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

an elapsoides trying to be a dixoni.........nice....the black isn't bad on it....
and the previous Tyrell's.....aaaaaaaaah.......(finally got me one ...yea...one...wheeee....LOL)....

...good luck and thanxx......!
.
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........JY
.

Chris, nice photos, great animals.

The question is easy for me, I like Pale milksnakes, L.t. multistrata best of all. Here's why.

Cherry co. NE

Thomas co. NE

Cherry co. NE

Thomas co. NE

Cherry co. NE

Cherry co. NE

Cherry co. NE

Cherry co. NE

Pennington co. SD

Pennington co. SD

Pennington co. SD

Yellowstone co. MT

Yellowstone co. MT

Bighorn co. MT

Bighorn co. MT

Bighorn co. MT

Bighorn co. MT

Stillwater co. MT

Stillwater co. MT

Stillwater co. MT

Stillwater co. MT

Stillwater co. MT

Stillwater co. MT

Powder river co. MT

Powder river co. MT

Powder river co. MT

Carbon co. MT

Bighorn co. MT

Tha..tha..tha..that's all folks. -Dell

Why. Why do you and cole do this to me. You know I love those pales. I don't have any more room right now and you have me wishing I did. Beautiful collection as always.

Thanks Joe for the kind words.

We need to get you stepping up to some Pales in your collection soon.

-Dell

Its a pointed question, how much(%)of your love for them has to do with you hunting them?? To me, and maybe I am different from most guys on this forum, but part of the snake itself is the day, the hunt, who you were with and the special feeling of FINDING such a prize. I think this is directly opposite from either breeding or buying the same specimens. I really want to be right on this, because alot of people who read these forums never get afield.

Jeff,
I feel the same as you. Many of my favorite snakes
are snakes that I've found myself. There's a nostalgia
that goes along with them.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

Jeff, I'm not sure if I can quantify how much I like being in the field, and how much I enjoy my collection at home.

I will agree that finding your target animal in the field is a great feeling that's hard to beat. I do have to say though, that I have had some pretty cool animals come out of deli cups that have been shipped to me from a good breeder is also a tough feeling to beat too.

-Dell

Often to get that 1-2 snakes you want you end up having to buy someone's whole collection. The classifieds are a good place to find odds and ends, but no self respecting NA milk guy lets go his GOOD stuff there. By the way, where were you guys when I was getting pummelled by the Hondo guys?? LMAO. Colors, Colors, Colors, Colors....

........classifieds suck....never find what you want...never find the good stuff...people sell them before they have to put them online or have friends ask for them years in advance at times....or they just don't get many to eat, certain few ....some have alot of stuff but don't advertise at all....and who to ask for what???.....

then there's the I saw a pic...and I want some just like that...but if you buy the whole clutch, you still might not get one just like the first you saw...genetics change after being bred to a different mate, even if they look alike....kids are different...damn redheads pop up all over....?...LOL(joke, nevermind)...

.....I prefer the deli-cup/classified/show finds...
why?...because even though I gotta pay for it....I ave to hunt in a way...and when I find it and ask for it and pay for it...it's mine...lucky...all mine....IN the field...I can find 100 cool cool snakes...and I just want to or even have to just let them go...they are not mine...they are wild and usually shall remain wild....(I never hunted other states yet so I have to say usually, here in PA it's always released actually...)....

someday....westward..........>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!

...wait...?>>>>>>>>that's south here....>>>>>>>>>>>
V
V
V
V
V

pointed west......
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........JY
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Maybe "not many" keepers, but "not many" means yeah, sometimes there's a find.

This odd honduran (photo) showed up on the kingnsnake classifieds and fueled a short-lived campaign by several breeders that unfortunately ended (or has come close to ending) with the loss of most of the animals. For morph-breeders, it was exciting because its weird pattern modification (each black ring split by white) could have been bred into the many different color morphs, producing half a dozen different new phenotypes. It was advertised as a honduran; supposedly keyed out as such. But it would be interesting to hear what viewers here think about the ssp, given our heightened skepticism and the greater scrutiny that's now rightly brought to bear.

Anyway, the animal showed up on the classifieds. Like you, not expecting anything dramatic there, i read the ad, looked at the small photo, and didn't appreciate what was being offered. It was weeks later it dawned on me, and the chase was on.

I also seem to remember one of the mountain king morphs first showing up in a deli cup at the mid-atlantic reptile show. So just as a field hunt involves looking under a LOT of stones that produce no results, the same can be true of scanning the classifieds or looking in 1000 deli cups at a show: there's always the exciting anticipation of what the NEXT moment might bring...

Wow!,.......I'm sure some milk guy's were tripping all over themselves in an attempt to "land" that unique looking joker!

So why was it "shown" in the first place?, and about when?

Are you saying THAT particular animal was on the "auction block" a long while back?

I think I might know of the name involved there, but can't be totally sure.

Extremely cool mutation!,....that is FACT!!!!!!wooooo!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Wow!,.......I'm sure some milk guy's were tripping all over themselves in an attempt to "land" that unique looking joker!
>>
>> So why was it "shown" in the first place?, and about when?
>>
>> Are you saying THAT particular animal was on the "auction block" a long while back?

yep, was on the block--on the classifieds--in 2001, i think. That's the date i have associated with the pic i posted. One reason i overlooked it I think was that it was priced cheaply (remember this was the day of the $3,000 albino and the $5,000 snow) for maybe 750, 900, 1350, I'm not sure. But the price seemed more like the prices people were hanging on every snake that had a few scales out of place or a different hue of orange than its clutchmates, giving them special names and holding out for big bucks. So I glanced and passed. Dumb!

The two pix shown here of the same animal are circa 2004.

I post them in case anybody has a better idea what the snake is/was--both the ssp AND the nature of the morph are fair game for discussion. On the latter issue, it seems to me it's like a tangerine in that the narrow and wide rings are the same color, but this is one of those uncommon instances where that happens with a red snake rather than an orange one. And the black rings are split by white. Very odd. The linked pic gives a view of the head ring which may help someone better ID it, though with all the other color/pattern changes seeming to take place (including to black rings), who knows what might or might not have been altered on that part of the coloration and pattern.

Ideas, anyone?

another view

WOWWWW!!!,....

Yeah!,....that would be worth BIG bucks today!, and even back then too!.

Even the thin "V" type snout band is the wrong color! The bands are pretty few as well.

I won't even attempt to hazzard a guess as to what "type" it might be either, as any talk at all now seems to spark the next nuclear world war anyway..LOL!, so whatever. I don't think it even COULD be accurately identified because of all the strangeness going on anyway, unless it was "known" to have came from a certain locale, but who knows.

But not only are what would be the white/yellow rings now red, and all bi-colored with the rest, but the crazy piebaldness inside the black rings is absolutely insane too!.......a true "freakazoid" for sure!

Wonder what the heck ever became of the animal, trait, hets, or bloodline???. Maybe it wasn't an inheritable gene to begin with too, that could be very possible too, who knows, all I can say is ........I LIKE IT!!

thanks for sharing that awesome pic!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Great question, Jeff. Drawing on my own experiences I'd guess many herpetoculturists also have a real appreciation for the species and ssps in the wild.

I bred pyro and (with a tip of hat to skeptics) "hondo" morphs, and a holy grail for me would have been to see a wild-type of either one in the wild. I never got to Honduras, and my several trips to AZ have so far resulted only in near-misses.

Ask Randy Limburg: Ruth-like or Ali-like, he told us in advance he'd find a pyro on one of my trips to Portal, and I was nearby when he did--but the rest of us were skunked on that quest and i remain skunked. But I'm not giving up.

I also bred the albino "eastern kings" (another hat-tip) and that's probably why the only snake i possess now is the little eastern i found this spring in SC. But ask Howie Sherman and tall Brad how close I was years ago when others in my group found them on a hunting trip to VA and NC--where I was skunked again.

Oh and there's scarlet kings: The first snake i bred. But despite living in Florida I've not found one yet. So as recently as last week I was talking to Lindsay Pike about getting on the road and continuing that quest.

Of course, my dad golfed for about 65 years before he got his first and only hole-in-one, so i suppose there's still time for me.

I did breed a pair of okeetee red rats (from lee abbott stock, can we agree there's no better source for those?) and living in florida I had the satisfaction of finding plenty of red rats. Lots of peninsular florida kings, too, but the eastern king I found in SC this spring was--is--special because it had the wild phenotype characteristics to remind me of the purchased one i had as a teenager.

If those of us who enjoy producing morphs are thinking clearly (see link below image) we see the connection between those animals and to animals in the wild. That builds a special reverence for nature. I think those who don't make that connection fuel some of the fires on these forums about hybrids and crosses. I don't see how you can experience the thrill of the hunt, with a wild phenotype as the goal, and not want to preserve that incredible asset as it is, whether or not you also have an appreciation for the genetic grandeur that produces the morphs--and maybe especially so. Heck, it's enough just to drive through their habitat and realize the wild animals live there.

So in my mind, i keep picturing me and some buds on a snake hunt, in search of that Lampropeltis holy grail...
">
CLICK HERE: ON THINKING CLEARLY

Those are simply outstanding!, buddy!

But......aren't those just the same exact thing as any other NA milk??.....also, why do they have different names?

Please,...do not send a mail bomb to my address!..LOL!

your (hopefully still) friend, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha whew, your funny Doug.
You know the unabomber did live in Montana.

How did I miss all the fun? Dancing, videos, deletings, name calling in a civil manner, and even sballard got into the mix. Busy, busy few days, fun to read fo sho.

Here are a few milks from NA, we can just call them all M.P.M's all so know as morphs of Pale milksnakes.
Subspecies have been overated by biologists for years!!!!

Douh! How did that dam thing get in here?


Stop it now.

-Dell

LOL!!,...I knew you would like my reply..haha!

geez!,...MORE sweet lookin' stuff hey?..okay, two can play at THAT game!

before!

after!, now at only 24 months later at well over 1000 grams(2.2 lbs.)what an insane ontogenic transformation!

you know this one!

[IMG]
a classic Outer Banks kingsnake (sticticeps)

these are from the mid 90's, but still awesome just the same!

some awesome floridana

OOOOOOH Barracuda!!

a striped aberrant Outer Banks king (sticticeps)

And one that wasn't caught on a little crappie pole!..LOL!

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Great looking animals Doug. One suggestion though, you might want to try feeding them a little more then once a month because some of those look a little on the thin side.
I bet you have a hard time keeping mice around for long w/ those monsters.

The aberrant hondo. is looking awesome as I would expect. Thanks again w/ the help on that one, I'll post a few new photos of mine when I get them.

Wholly cow! Those are champion Snook you have caught over the years. I'd cut a finger off to have had a shot at some of those. I love Snook, one of the best game fish on the planet.

My God, huge Snook! Love it, but the trucker hat is outstanding. Is that a Peacock Bass on it. You gotta send it to me.

Great Tarpon too. But the look on your buddies face, PRICLESS!
I really like how into it he is. I can hear him, through clenched teeth saying, that's right we caught this bastard now.

Cool photos Doug, thanks. -Dell

>> "Great looking animals Doug. One suggestion though, you might want to try feeding them a little more then once a month because some of those look a little on the thin side.
I bet you have a hard time keeping mice around for long w/ those monsters.

The aberrant hondo. is looking awesome as I would expect. Thanks again w/ the help on that one, I'll post a few new photos of mine when I get them.

Wholly cow! Those are champion Snook you have caught over the years. I'd cut a finger off to have had a shot at some of those. I love Snook, one of the best game fish on the planet.

My God, huge Snook! Love it, but the trucker hat is outstanding. Is that a Peacock Bass on it. You gotta send it to me."

Thanks Dell!.....

Yes, I'll take your advice and try to give those "thin" one's a few more extra calorie's than I have bee lately..LOL!

Ditto!,....the rodent's go fairly quick as I load them onto the conveyor belt at feeding time!..hahaha!

I'm really glad you like those aberrant's too, and couldn't be happier about you scoring some of those too. The pleasure was all mine, buddy!

Ya' know, sometime's when you casually talk to someone about some of the big fish that you've landed over the years, it sort of get's taken for granted and doesn't mean too much until you pull out some of the actual photo's of some of these monster's !..LOL!,....THEN their eye's explode into saucer sized disks in absolute amazement at JUST how impressive some of these really are. I've caught many snook in the 36" to 42" inch range, but the biggest one I have EVER landed was the one with me in the black shirt holding it up and down. That monster was 44-3/4" long!!!!!, a true world class prize if there ever was one. Some were probably even larger, but they snapped me off at the barnacle encrusted dock, which(as you know) can be very typical of these saavy fish.//LOL!

I couldn't agree with you more,...snook are one of the most coveted prized fish on this entire planet, not to mention, some of the best table fair as well.

My frien's and I are alway's laughing about that mean snear on his face as he's holding up part of that Tarpon!..LOL!,..glad you caught that and got a chuckle too!..that was priceless!..LOL!

That hat I was wearing, had a "generic" bass type fish on it, and the caption on it originally red....."I'd rather be fishing". But I customized it a little, and x'ed-out the part about fishing, and added..."catching them"..hahaha!

I don't know WHERE the heck that hat is now, but that was one of my favorite fishing hats for sure, among many other's.

We seem to have a BUNCH in common, and that is really cool too.

I would like to snag some of those central American jobs I always see you sporting!,...those are really awesome and cool patterned/colored as well. Good photo material for SURE!

BTW,....are all those C. American fish just all the same thing too..hahaha!!..woooooo!

take care buddy!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

What kid of awesome patterned bottom feeder is that one you're holding?

That would make a killer aquarium addition I'll bet too!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>And one that wasn't caught on a little crappie pole!..LOL!

I know exactly what you did. Same thing those guys with the "six" and "eight" foot "hondurans". Yeah, right. Those fishies are all little six-inch bait fish and you fooled the camera by holding them WAY out in front of you, close to the camera lens. You should post GENUINE pix, like this 28" monster i pulled from the depths of Lake Patagonia in SE AZ.
monster fish

HAHAHA!!,..that's some funny-a$$ stuff, Terry!

Yes, that bream must be a few pounds at LEAST!..LOL!, I love when guy's do that stuff!

thanks for the funny reply and pic!

ps, that Great White pic makes ya' quake to the core, hey???...geeeeez!. He could have someone as a tiny party snack!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

You missed a TON of stuff. Some of the best parts got deleted.

-Cole
"The Scientist"

-Cole
"The Scientist"
>HaHAAHA! love the label!

Dell,

That's one hell of a multistrata collection there man. Great stuff. I love the variety from all the different locales.

Thanks for sharing.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Man!,....that SK pic is just too cute, man!..LOL!

Very cool stuff, Chris!

And....YES!, go over to Photobucket and get the free account right now!!!!, it only takes a blink of an eye, and it's DONE!

Then you can post like all the rest of civilized man!..LOL! what's the hold-up??

I'll post some pics soon.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Great stuff Chris! I'll dance to this song. No surprises here from me...

Looking forward to your updated photos on the bucket.
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Joe

You can dance! Alright and great stuff to dance with! Same to you Chris but you guys just don't need to dance together. Lol
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Knock it off Joe!

I don't need any more cool snakes!, I'm already up to my ears here!..........ARRRRGHH!!

That pic of yours is enough to make a guy toss and turn at night..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Chris, man don't know what to say. Those are all fantastic animals...really, really nice. I'd have to say I agree with you on syspila being a favorite. I too need to take some new photos and will post some of my NA milks soon. You've got one hell of a collection there man.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Chris you have some KILLER snakes there! I have had some pretty amazing milks over the years, a couple of my best you got from me(Anery Monster and that Hypo red). I remember getting a really cool pair of BLACK coastals from Chuck the snake man in MD. From 5' away they would pass as chain kings! They produced normal babies in F1, but that was before all these genes were found to be recessive. Never seen another pair like em. I have seen some BAD pics of the albino Red milks that all perished in the fire, they were smokers too. Then there were some individual coastals from Currituck,NC/Chesapeake VA that Brad may still be working with. He has an abbarrant milk from Wicomico Co. on the eastern shore too. And you cant leave out those Alabama eastern/reds that are very nice but havent been bred. Add my first GREEN monster, its scales prizmed like that of a dragonflies wing! But for regularly produced animals, you simply cant beat those Tyrell, NCs beauties. To choose just one......its the same reason I am single!

Nice posts, Chris! Fantastic series of animals, buddy. I enjoyed each and every photo posted - from the nominate triangulum variation to the ash-gray bands of that amaura, the glowing hypomelanistic/Tyrosinase positive amelanistic/whatever they are "temporalis" to the darker forms, and the glorious celaenops to the striking elapsoides. Great stuff.

As I'm sure you can imagine, though, that multistrata takes the cake for me. Is that a Sheridan Co., NE animal? It has that look... Feel free to send it north!

-Cole

p.s. - Sorry to cut you off on the phone the other day. I'll try to give you a jingle this evening.

Hey Chris,
You should breed them all together, and see what you get!
There's a few people on here that'll buy one, and then you can
release the rest! After all they are just Lampropeltis.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!