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I had purchased a sub-adult female "Louisiana Pine" a few years ago hoping to breed it. But as time passed I am starting to question whether or not it is in fact a pure Louisiana Pine. I refuse to breed it until I know for sure, and I know the two ways to know is either get one from the source or a reliable breeder or to do genetic work. So I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the genetic work and how I could go about having it done? Thanks.

-Strickland

Strickland,
A few quick questions:
1. Are you able to provide details as to where/who you purchased your female LA pine from?
2. Also, do you have any info as to any specific bloodline that your snake may be from??
3. What specifically has raised your suspicions???
Cheers,
--Brian
PS-----Also, how about a few photos????
-----
--Brian Scott

...go get 'em Brian!

I purchased from a reptile breeder in Ft. Meyers, Fl. But he had purchased it from someone else. I misplaced his card. He said it was the Trumbower bloodline. What raised my suspicion was that it seems to be unusually yellow. I have seen some pics of ones that are pretty yellow but still. It has rusty red/brown blotches on its back and some are faded. It also doesn't seem to be girthy, I don't know if that matters. I have a Vandeventer sub-adult male and the two seem to have no similarities other than the typical pine snake head. I can try and post pics of both of them later.

Got one too (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1734162,1734610). Would love to see pics of your two.

btw, for all interested, I will not be breeding the male which it has been determined is in fact a product of outcrossing. The female will be moving into a new breeding colony of pure blood ruthveni to help develop a genetically diverse captive population.

Breed the male with other pines and bulls and call them LA phase. High yellow, high red, get an albino phase going and eventually they will become pure again. I've seen this with other types of snakes. Check out the other forums, start from the early years and move forward

Not quite sure I understand...rather, very sure I DON'T understand??? Can you clarify Rich?

In either case, no binos live here...but I do have a lucy, couldn't resist.

My sense of humor can be dry at times

LOL...and I can be suckered sometimes...but not often

If it looks like an LA pine, and I advertise it as an LA pine for $300.00 and you buy it for $300.00...hey...you have a LA pine...I guarantee it!!! :>

Here's a pic of her, almost looks like a deppei.
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My bad, here's the photo bucket link haven't figured out how to post images on here yet.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/Strickland1987/102_0420.jpg
Link

That ain't even close to ruthveni...but what a looker!!! Jeez, I would guess lots of jani in that baby.

I would like to see any genetic work that anybody has on these to begin with. This topic has come up numerous times and I have yet to see anything proving they did not come from intergrades in the wild. Its not likely that any genetic research was done. Its not a cheap thing to have done and was even more expensive if availble at all when the sub species was defined.

"I had purchased a sub-adult female "Louisiana Pine" a few years ago hoping to breed it. But as time passed I am starting to question whether or not it is in fact a pure Louisiana Pine. I refuse to breed it until I know for sure, and I know the two ways to know is either get one from the source or a reliable breeder or to do genetic work. So I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the genetic work and how I could go about having it done? Thanks.
-Strickland"

As far as genetic research goes I think you would be wasting your time. It's expensive, yes, but more difficult it would be to find a source of pure genetic information to use as a control. Along with this comes many other complications that I feel are probably not good for discussion here. I think it's just too over the top for basic hobbyist-level desires. Of course, if you have the money and the resources to get suitable DNA material to use as comparison material then by all means dive right in.
An alternative is what I have been doing, and that is investigative research...basically talking to a lot of people and gathering as much information as possible and then trying to painstakingly sort it all out in the end. Let me show you some examples:

These are two LA pines (ruthveni) that I purchased along with another male from Scott J. Michaels, DVM. Through some simple research I was able to follow the lineage through Scott back to Eric Richter, and then back to the Vandeventer-Young line of founding animals from the 1980s. Thus, I believe that this female (top photo), and her brother (bottom photo) are pure ruthveni. While Vandeventer and Young will not release location-of-capture data on any of their animals, we have accepted and taken at face-value in the hobby that their line is pure and untainted. Therefore I have no reason to believe that my animals are not pure.
2009 FEMALE ruthveni from the Vandevaeter-Young line bred by Eric Richter, brokered by Scott J. Michaels.

2009 MALE ruthveni from same lineage.

The above snakes were rather simple cases. The following female was not quite as easy, but it shows what some persistence and patience will result in. Through the efforts of my investigation, and the help of close friends like Bob Fengya and Tom Agosta I was able to acquire this 2008 female just today. You can see that she looks a little different and like in all pine snakes this is normal and to be expected. They are not all cut from one cookie-cutter mold. Genetically speaking, she is the cream of the crop and she is an outstanding addition to my genetic-diversity- driven program.
2008 FEMALE ruthveni. Lineage is as follows: Wild Bienville Parish x Vandeventer-Young father bred to a Vandeventer-Young x Kane mother = WCBPxVY X VYxKane with superior genetics.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. You can take it as far as you want to go with genetics and never have to pay a dime on tests and such. In the near future I will be making a more informative post, in my own thread, on my research. Don't lose any hope and remember that if you do have a hybrid it's ok--as a pet. And nothing is wrong with that!
Enjoy your snakes!!
Cheers,
--Brian
-----
--Brian Scott

Alright thanks, I'll be waiting for that post, sounds like interesting stuff. Thanks again.

-Strickland

The Trumbower myth involves a story of a young guy from Florida who went to Louisiana vacationing and low and behold cathes a clutch (!) of baby pinesnakes in a woodpile, all in one feld swoop... so much for dispersal. So the kid just happens to know where a well known Florida dealer is and sells or consigns them there, Then the animals are sold as ruthveni owing to their reputed origin and the rest is history. The picture you posted doesn't resemble any pure ruthveni I've ever seen, and that's many I assure you. Terry V. and Ginter jump on board! Tom J

well I am not going to get involved with any discussion regarding who's blood line is good or bad in light of the fact that you simply can not tell if a snake is pure by looking at it! (some look better than others of course! but you just can't tell).

I have a pair of Terry's bloodline and I am fairly certain that they are the real deal, even if mixed locality......

I mentioned earlier that I think there are probably fewer fakes out there than we think and there are probably atypical looking pure ruthveni that would be discounted....

what a mess

I agree John. The real fact is that this is a "hobby" for most of us, not a "scientific lab" or "DNA Forensics." Brian said it well, "do your homework." That is the best the "hobby" can offer...no guarantees...no absolute proofs. If one needs "absolute proof"...then go catch your own. To me if it looks like duck, swims like a duck, quacks like duck, flies like duck, has feathers like aduck, lays eggs like a duck, craps like duck, hey...I've got a duck. If one needs more proof then that, then they need to go somewhere other then a hobbiest forum. That my two cents!!

Dan

Hi Ginter,

Admittedly, Bob Young and I have never revealed the locality of our snakes. The reason is that all eleven of our wild founder animals came from a tiny six-mile radius, and we were afraid of an influx of collectors. Journal of Herpetology would not accept our paper without us revealing exact localities (!) so we published in the Chicago Herpetological Society Bulletin and Vivarium Magazine.

Although there is no need to reiterate, our animals are 100% pure and I would consider them to definately be "locality" snakes.

I do think there are more fakes out there than you might imagine. I break peoples' hearts all the time because they send me pictures of their snakes hoping that I'll tell them that they've got real ruthveni. Better than 90% of the time I give them my *oppinion* that they possess hybrids. At that point it is up to them to decide their course of action.

It's a tangled web. Bob and I don't produce as many as we used to. No offence to anyone but just we're a couple of old guys who have seen this industry develop over the last fifty years. What the community did to ruthveni broke OUR hearts. So now we enjoy our snakes and when the urge strikes us, we may produce a few. Contrary to what people think, we're not trying to punish anyone. We're just a bit burned out with that aspect of the hobby.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

What the community did to "ruthveni" broke our hearts. I'm not sure what you mean here Terry. I think what a "certain zoo" did reeked havoc on "ruthveni", but, I don't understand what you mean by "the community". Not trying to start anything...just wondering what you meant!!

Dan

Off the top of my head I can only think of one zoo who produced what they dubbed "Piney-bulls", and that was Fort Worth thirty-five years ago. Is that the zoo you are refering to?

As far as the community, I am refering to the reptile breeding community here in the US. You and me and thousands of others who breed for fun or profit. It is this community who hybridized the Louisiana Pinesnake with other species and passed them off as pure ruthveni. Nobody has kept a closer eye on this than me and Bob. We've seen it run rampant through the industry. One guy in Louisiana bred them to Black Pinesnakes, "just to see if it could be done." Those snakes are *now* out on the market unbeknownst to many. Jim Kane sold all of his 100% pure breeding stock because people were undercutting him with hybrids that closely resembled ruthveni. The examples go on and on. It was the reptile hobbyist community who threatened the identity of the Louisiana Pinesnake on the open market. A breeder from Ohio admitted to breeding a Louisiana to a "yellow bull" to produce animals he sold for years (and still is when I last heard) as pure ruthveni. Even highly respected breeders acquired stock in good faith, only later to discover they had hybrids. These good guys stopped breeding them an sought out pure stock. Others just sold the breeders as pure to someone else who kept right on breeding them...

When someone loses their female for some reason, it might be hard to quickly locate and purchase a lone female to replace her. So they just plug the remaining male into a Bullsnake, or more commonly a deppei. Don't want to miss a breeding season! And noone will know.

I've had people at shows come up to me to show off their beautiful ruthveni, which is so two-by-four-between-the-eyes obviously a hybrid. What am I supposed to do? Say, "That's nice, I'm sure you must be very proud?" We're only human and I'm sure that both Bob and I can be fooled. But I would hazard to say that we've seen more ruthveni than anyone.

Hybrids are generally pretty distinctive. And please try to understand that, as lame as it may sound, it's just a combination of experience and an eye for the subject. Ruthveni have "a look." But the only other snake they could possibly be (somewhat) confused with would be some of the particularly well-patterned panhandle Florida Pines or some of the brownish Carolinas sandhill northerns. Louisianma Pinesnakes don't look like Bullsnakes, or Black Pines, or gophersnakes. They look like Louisiana Pinesnakes.

So yes, it is the "community" that I blame. Some did it intentionally and in other cases it was unintentional purchases of said animals. Money was the driving force. I think this practice is not as common in recent years but the harm was done. I don't remember everyone who bought ruthveni from us over the years. Receipts are stored away and after seven or eight years are disposed of. Some customers are remembered while others faded away and were never heard from again. So it's difficult to document who has what, unless they have their original sales receipt that accompanied the snakes we shipped them. And if you don't trust the word of Terry Vandeventer and Bob Young, there's not much else we can do to alleviate your fears.

Cheers,

TV

Terry, well said.

Thanks very much Terry for such a careful and informative post, from a novice who really wants to understand the history, issues etc.

I posted the high yellow wtf and a female which is apparently pure. I was ignorantly going to breed them but, thanks to this thread, now know better. I'm moving the female out to breeder who is setting up a group of known pures (as well as it could be known that is).

Thanks Terry. Like you, I have been in this hobby for over fifty years. I think this discussion needs to come out every now and then, as a lot of new pople in this hobby are not aware of some of things you brought out. Just wondering though, and not that I want you to disclose the locale information of your "ruthveni", but did you and Bob personally catch your stock? Hopefully as we all grow in this hobby, we learn a little something. I know I wasn't born with all my teeth and hair, and I have done my share of some pretty stupid things in the past. I know I purchase three LA pines at a snake show back in the 90's for #750.00 and after having a discussion with you and KJ and observing the animals themselves, I came to the conclusion I had hybrids. I sold them for all for $150 as hybrids. Wish I would have just kept the animals, because I do not know what the person who bought them did with them...at least I could hav kept them out of the mix! Back in the 80's a friend of mine went to Texas on a snake collecting trip. He was really big into rattlesnakes...didn't know much about anything else. Upon his return, I stopped by his house to see his catch. Of course he caught everything he could so that he could sell the surplus to pay for his trip. In the mist of all of the rattlesnakes, garters, and bulls snakes was a huge LA pine, (he thought it was just an ugly bull snake from east Texas) until I told him otherwise. I think he sold it to one of the locale dealers in Florida. Wish I could go back and get that snake from him!! Thanks again Terry for the info. People need to know.

Dan

Dan,

All eleven of our wild founder animals were captured by school children, hunters, farmers, and people who work out of doors. None of them had any interest in snakes (killed everyone they encountered) but when we offered them some cash incentive, they were eager to keep their eyes open for the next one.

Cheers,

TV

Hey Terry,
When looking at an animal...what is it that you look for to distinguish if it is a LA Pine or hybrid? I would think that it would be difficult, and you mention you just give your opinion. In an earlier thread for example you mentioned how some NC Pines that you saw in the field could pass for LA Pines. Also, all the races of Pines vary so much, even within rather localized population or even within a single clutch, it seems that LA Pines would to. In fact I remember seeing some field shots recently of some LA Pines( may have been on this forum or another) that looked very different from others that I have seen. I hear people say "that doesn't look like a LA Pine" as someone did in an above post but I would say ...what does a LA Pine supposed to look like because must vary alot like any other Pine population. John may have made a good but unforutnate point on all this...what a mess. People have taken advantage of the ambiguous id of this species and have made a mess of it all. I see your point in being disgusted concerning the status of these guys in the public reptile breeding world.

Hey Scott,

Part of my answer to your question is in my post just before this one. When I said that the brown northerns from Scotland County looked "just like ruthveni", I should have said that both Bob and I were somewhat startled when we first saw them.

I had a pair of eight footers from that locale that were the most clean b & w northerns I had (have) ever seen. When we had the opportunity to actually travel to the spot the original gravid female was collected, the first two snakes (DORs) looked remarkably like our ruthveni. Upon examination it was immediately clear that they were northerns; just *brown* northerns. It was the overall hue that fooled us momentarily.

Not much help I know.

Cheers,

TV

That's pretty much the story I heard. I heard it was an old building and he *routinely* captured pines there and sold them to Glades. New urban herp legend.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer