Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this is vivarium mag. march/april 1996 vol.7 no.5 article by louis porras. i love his take on "hondurans" and thought the forum would enjoy it. i dont have a scanner so hopefully the pics work.










here are some of my animals that i got from larry valentine and that are descendants of alot in that article.





,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Holy cow. I like the one that is alomost eight feet!! Jeeeez.

Most I have seen are in the 4-6' range, does anyone have a LEGITIMATE 7'er? Are they not reaching that size because they are all being bred smaller than that? I swear, just a question, not a negative post. LOL.

I, too, would love to know about larger lines of Hondos. I think it would be a fun side project to grow some really big ones.
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http://www.mikefoux.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

I've got three adults all slightly over or right at six feet and weigh more than 1,200 grams. A tang. hypo female and a male anery and male tang. albino.

Rob

this pic was taken a year or so ago the male is well over 6' and the female is not far behind. i will get a currant pic up soon.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Man...I need a cigarette....

I looked at the pic and thought damn that is a big hondo....

wait...6 foot...that means you'd be 3 foot tall....wait...it's two snakes...ok....look at it again Jeff....duh

I still need a cigarette....been a week and a day.....

.......
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........JY
.

Thanks for posting this one. Cool stuff!
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http://www.mikefoux.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

great pics/great post

Thanks for the article! Adam

Now your dancing lol.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

thanks for posting that. louis is a pretty knowledgeable guy and this was his "area" (geograpically/residential/and herpetoculturally) of interest.

Tom:

Thanks so much for posting this. A great look back in time and some still very valuable information about some of our favorite snakes.

My favorite part of the article?

"Although these milk snakes will probably govern the colubrid tri-color market in the years to come, hopefully they will not lose their appeal simple because of a drop in their commercial value."

Talk about relevant!

Those of us who keep Hondurans and get hooked do so because of the many traits they have that make them so rewarding beyond any monetary value: They feed well, get to a big size, are impressively colored and have a calm demeanor as adults. Anyone who tries to knock Hondurans is forgetting these qualities or discounting them. As a hobbiest, I enjoy keeping and breeding these snakes for all the reasons Porras describes.

Rob Haneisen

>>>My favorite part of the article?

"Although these milk snakes will probably govern the colubrid tri-color market in the years to come, hopefully they will not lose their appeal simple because of a drop in their commercial value."

Talk about relevant!

>hi rob, thanks!
you aint kidding about the relevance of that statement! and to think he wrote that 13years ago wow.
and i totally agree i have them because i LOVE them NOT because of what ssp. or locality they are or their commercial value. some folks just dont get that, kinda sad really.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>> "i have them because i LOVE them NOT because of what ssp. or locality they are or their commercial value. some folks just dont get that, kinda sad really."

The real IRONY in this whole thing is.............that is exactly what I and the other's have been saying this entire time.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

oh i see doug, but when i explain my viewpoint about ssp. which differs from convential taxa(which is apparently all you know or care to know and just blindy follow and defend) for instance nelsons/sinaloan, and i openly state it as my opinion that they are the same and i disagree with them being seperate ssp.theres alot of ssp. i feel dont deserve ssp. status, but im not out openly attacking them, im just stating my opinion!...and i am attacked on every front and if i was to cross them i would be creating mutts,im uneducated, cant be trusted and on and on and on. good for ya'll... so i point out hondos are probably what you splitters call ssp. crosses and how is that acceptable to you puritans and im attacked there to! now you say you love them all to! howsa bout the mutts doug?and who qualifies a mutt,you?
now thats ironic!,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Okay, nevermind.

I didn't think my simple comment was going to start world warIII all over again.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

classic doug, heres another tidbit you like to do...

>>>Sort of like that sweet little fellow you captured there in your own yard by the pond. Is that the same thing as a taylori?, or an amaura?, or a syspila?.........the answer to that is a very simple...no!, and for a huge number of great little reason's too.

Should any of this be so tough for some to understand?,...well, not really, but hey, that's just another silly opinion of mine..LOL!

take my ideas all out of context and make fun... good for you.
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Okay then,..I'll play along with you on this here(or dance, or whatever). So what got so "twisted" there in my post?. Are you saying there ARE some distict differences with the snake's I mentioned there, or are they just all the same thing?,...you tell me......huh??

See, ya' can't have it both ways here, this was already explained here many times already by several people, just stick to one belief or the other, how can they all be one type?. Quit being so bent on arguing that you forget what the real point was. So what were your nelson's/sinaloan's or whatever they really were labeled as when you ever DID sell any?,..was it nelsaloan?, or what?. Maybe labeled nelson/sinaloan? I sort of doubt it.

Regarding your statement's on the sinaloae/nelsoni thing, of COURSE you don't think there is any difference, and unfortunately neither do I most of the time when I look at people's stuff on a table. That's a big part of what I've been trying to say for a long time. Because there ISN'T a big difference(if any) most of the time!.

Ya' see, it's because you and many, many, many other's are so used to seeing horrible examples over the years that are ENTIRELY intermediate and have been constantly intergraded together in plastic breeder tubs to the point that you(or I), or ANYONE cannot really see a real discernible difference at all, and they're labeled by these sellers as either one, anyone can usually flip a coin and call it whichever they want. Only rarely can anyone pick out some good examples of either one nowadays. Simple as that!, anyone can see it, even if I pulled someone off the street that was a totally non-herp person, they would be able to see a HUGE difference if I were to show them two good examples of both snakes, and tell them several other things to look for as well, it is as obvious as the nose on someone's face once you actually "know" the differences.

So, a Cosala Sinaloan is the same exact thing as a nelsoni, I'm glad I at least know that now, thank god that was pointed out to me here. I was really confused there for a while.

So if all of this still makes no sense at all by this point, great. It makes no difference to me.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

n/t

see video below
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

GEEZ here we go...

>>>So what got so "twisted" there in my post?. Are you saying there ARE some distict differences with the snake's I mentioned there, or are they just all the same thing?,...you tell me......huh??

>i NEVER said they were all the same thing doug.

>>>See, ya' can't have it both ways here, this was already explained here many times already by several people, just stick to one belief or the other, how can they all be one type?

>stick to one belief or another???nobody likes ultimatums doug.i dont want it both ways and i never said all lampros are one type.

>>>Quit being so bent on arguing that you forget what the real point was. So what were your nelson's/sinaloan's or whatever they really were labeled as when you ever DID sell any?,..was it nelsaloan?, or what?. Maybe labeled nelson/sinaloan? I sort of doubt it.

>whos bent on argueing doug??? and yes back when i did breed and sell them i labeled them nelson/sinaloan milksnakes because even back then i did not believe they were seperate ssp.

>>>Regarding your statement's on the sinaloae/nelsoni thing, of COURSE you don't think there is any difference, and unfortunately neither do I most of the time when I look at people's stuff on a table. That's a big part of what I've been trying to say for a long time. Because there ISN'T a big difference(if any) most of the time!.

>UNFORTUNATELY!!! you take the cake dude.

>>>Ya' see, it's because you and many, many, many other's are so used to seeing horrible examples over the years that are ENTIRELY intermediate and have been constantly intergraded together in plastic breeder tubs to the point that you(or I), or ANYONE cannot really see a real discernible difference at all, and they're labeled by these sellers as either one, anyone can usually flip a coin and call it whichever they want. Only rarely can anyone pick out some good examples of either one nowadays. Simple as that!, anyone can see it, even if I pulled someone off the street that was a totally non-herp person, they would be able to see a HUGE difference if I were to show them two good examples of both snakes, and tell them several other things to look for as well, it is as obvious as the nose on someone's face once you actually "know" the differences.

>yeah ok doug here goes...WHATEVER

>>>So, a Cosala Sinaloan is the same exact thing as a nelsoni, I'm glad I at least know that now, thank god that was pointed out to me here. I was really confused there for a while.

>SEE WHY THE ARROGANCE DOUG DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL COOL LIKE YOU CAN DANCE? SORRY YOU CANT!!!

>>>So if all of this still makes no sense at all by this point, great. It makes no difference to me.

>well thats just great heres a great tune just for the occasion now attack my spelling.
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

All the out of place video's you've been posting make much more sense than the text.

Thanks for sharing those "face-flop" vid's, those were too funny!, I love stuff like that!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Great article Thomas, thanks for posting it.

Thomas Davis wrote:
"and i totally agree i have them because i LOVE them NOT because of what ssp. or locality they are or their commercial value. some folks just dont get that, kinda sad really."

Come on Thomas, really? Name me someone that has a decent milk collection that doesn't get it. We all keep our milks because of the enjoyment from working w/ them. If you understand ssp. and how important locality tied animals are, it makes them even more special, in my opinion.
I can't help you understand the ssp. thing, because I don't think you want to be helped. And that's fine, just stop telling all of us that ssp. don't matter, because your wrong.

Here are two good examples of NA species that have had consequences of geographical isolation within a species, makeing them a subspecies.

L.t. multistrata, Pale milksnake.

L.t. syspila, Red milksnake.

Would you really want to lump these two animals as just NA milks?

-Dell

yes i believe those you posted are valid ssp.
however there are no geographic barriers in the range of nelson/sinaloan milks and i dont beleive they should be seperate valid ssp its my opinion. i have others too of course its pointless to post them here amongst the "academics". that much i have learned.
glad you liked the article.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thank you for the valuable contribution. I haven't seen that article in some time, and it was nice to read it again.

As I said a number of times previously, I think you're over-exaggerating the importance of the subspecific epithet. It also appears that you're insinuating that these various subspecies are named due to their marketability. I hope that I'm misunderstanding you on that point, because that notion is pure and simple nonsense. Subspecies are named to denote the geographic variability (phenotypic and/or genotypic) within a species. They are named and described by scientists who generally have NO interest in keeping captive herps, and especially have no interest in profiting from them. I hope this clears up any confusion (if there actually was any).

-Cole

yes of course i understand they are not named for marketability i NEVER insinuated they were. and the scientist who classify them are just justifying time(time is money) and for many a legacy of having their name tied to an animal forever because it means something to them. splitters telling whoever will listen exactly HOW it all is and whats what. im glad you can swallow that bitter pill i will spit it out.
NO THANKS
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com