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Experiment update (of interest to FR):

Tony D Sep 25, 2009 09:14 AM

This involves my coastal plains milk snakes but the discussions started in this forum so I'm posting the results here.

Basically I have experimented with increasing the range of temperatures in one of my remaining snake racks. My system's "hot" spot was made smaller and hotter by disconnecting the 3" heat tape fully under the rack and installing heat cord at the bottom edge of the back wall. The cord was adjusted to provide ~100 "hot" spot where the 3" tape had been adjusted to provide temps in the low 90s. The smaller and hotter configuration also has less of an impact on the overall gradient inside the cage. Given an ambient room temperature of 76 I was able to effectively increase gradient of available surface temps from ~12 (92 - 80) to ~ 22 (100 - 78). I tried to increase the range even more by lowering the ambient room temp but this caused condensation and moisture problems inside the rack.

Anyway, the result is that 4 of the 6 snakes involved are still feeding heavily well into September and are showing no signs of letting up! The other two slowed down in mid and eventually went off feed by late August. Though it's only been one year and there was no control group to make comparisons to my gut is that the availability of a higher temp "hot spot" AND the ability to get away from it has produced desirable results from the feeding and weight gain perspectives. As long as this doesn't lead to more but smaller eggs next year I'll be sticking with and working to refine this method for the few snakes that will remain in my collection.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Replies (22)

Jlassiter Sep 25, 2009 02:47 PM

Tony,

What part of the country do you live?
Just wondering since you state that all your snakes have a strong feeding response well into September.
Mine will all have a strong feeding response year round if I don't artificially cool them off.

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Tony D Sep 25, 2009 03:10 PM

Mid-Atlantic. Most of my animals would too but the coastals have been a pretty consistant exception.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Patton Sep 25, 2009 05:41 PM

Hey Tony,
I have had the same experience with one WC adult
male and the adult male that came from the infamous Mike Wauhop
pair, both from St. Marys Co. Md. They both stop eating in mid August, but my 2.1 neonates have continued to eat like pigs.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

DMong Sep 25, 2009 08:06 PM

Hi Phil,..

Probably largely due to them being so young, that they haven't had a chance to get in "tune" to the yearly seasons yet,.. know what I mean?

That will probably change some later on next year.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

FR Sep 26, 2009 11:04 AM

Don't take this to hard but tuning to the seasons is a snake learning its current enviornment. In nature they move from place to place to achieve the longest season possible(mainly the individuals that will produce the next year. This is the snakes adjusting(tuning) the enviornment as best they can. Each area is different, Southern kings have a totally different behavior set then northern kings, yet they do(perform) in a manner that allows them to be kings.

You know my key question, why do keepers brumate kings from southernly areas, all the way to central amercia. You do know its not cold enough for brumation even in south fla, or here for that matter, then think of southern mex. hahahahahahahaha then it becomes clear its not about the snakes.

So yes, they do tune into their enviornment. Only the enviornments mamy keepers support them with, has no ability to allow them to tune themselves. The keepers do all the tuning and then say thats what the snakes want. To stop feeding is the snakes telling you the conditions are no longer suitable and they have no ability to fix the situation. In nature, they simply move to a place with more heat. And keep doing that until they run out of options, then they cease to metabolize(brumate) They do not simply give up in nature. They have a set of conditions they utilize.

What totally cracks me up is, we know snakes move to dens. We say they do that because it allows them not to freeze over the winter. Its funny but those areas keep heat the longest in their area. Which is PROLONGING THEIR ACTIVE SEASON. Its warner later in the fall winter, and warmer in the late winter, spring. Hmmmmmmmmmmm this one takes some thinking.

ALso feeding is only a part of a snakes behavior. They do many other things if they have the temps to support them.

Our field work reveals that fall, winter and early spring is the center of reproductive behavior. This is when the mates and potential mates gather and "socialize" They attempt to pair up with a known or bonded male, if possible. Or attempt to find a new mate if the old mate did not make it back(died)

Its funny but many people say they are not social(lately many do) but the standard method of keeping does not allow them the oppertunity to socialize. They go strait from reproducing, to feeding, to brumation, without a period to socialize. In nature, they make the time to gather in various sized groups and pairs. Here its the keepers that predict what they do, not the snakes.

Again, we must realize, one population has many segments, not all parts are the same. Resident breeders behave in one way, non residents in another, neonates again behave differently, as do transient individuals. This is also true with known social species. Unfortunately, snakes are like that Journey or was it forienger song. They have their life underground with the perfect disguise above. In the city(in our cages) the humans will show no love. Somebody help me out with who and more of the words, hahahahahahaha.

Anyways its nothing against you, its mainly because the snakes have that perfect disguise. And that humans are without question narsisissitic and have to control everything without considering these animals are perfectly capable of making their own choices if ALLOWED with the smallest manner of support.

After all, they come from nature and its only and totally their task to find ways to exsist.

Most here understand this but do not OWN it(Dr. Phil) we know kings go here and do this, and in a timely manner and ratsnakes go there and do that. Milksnakes are like kings(getula) but again choose something slighly different. You know this, yet we treat them like they are random and do not pick and choose what fits their needs. We do know this, yet we keep them all the same in captivity, no choices.

Most here respect wild snakes and particularly their species(no crosses or hybrids please) Yet, you do not allow each species to make its own unique choices that makes them the species they are. Consider, a species is control by its performance, its genetics will follow that. Its not the otherway around. Ok there is some of both, but without question, phenotypic pressures control a species, or they do not exsist. Cheers and sorry again for the rant.

DMong Sep 26, 2009 11:34 AM

I'm In total agreeance with snakes not necessarily needing to be technically "brumated" if they are from the tropical southern areas. Since I have many types from these areas, I basically let them aclimate to what the weather is doing outside, with the exception of the two temp extremes of course. The windows also help with them staying in touch with the seasonal photo-period as well.

Animals that are from a little further north such as the "sticticeps", I will also allow them to get cooler in the winter to better fit their "would be" natural environment. Although it certainly isn't natural at all, it's the best I can do, and seems to work very well for me in regards to yearly egg production, as well as the snakes themselves thriving VERY well.

~Doug


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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Upscale Sep 26, 2009 11:42 AM

I’m sure here in South Florida we have years where there are “good” years and some bad years, where maybe the reproduction is just not that good in the wild. In captivity, maybe we should let the snakes have a bad year like nature, but most wouldn’t want to do that. I think the idea is to manipulate them so every year is a good year, so we follow the recipe for that to happen with some certainty.

DMong Sep 26, 2009 12:49 PM

That's true, and I'm sure you'll also agree that things can and ARE different regarding egg production from year to year for a plethora of actual reasons we know nothing about, but most will say that it was probably due to this or that, when in reality, know one will EVER know exactly why most of the time. Which is another reason snakes usually have large numbers of eggs, when they DO have eggs......anything can happen, at any given time, before, after or during. After all, that is nature..LOL!

later bro!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

BillCobb Sep 26, 2009 08:34 PM

by America, 1971

On the first part of the journey
I was looking at all the life
There were plants and birds and rocks and things
There was sand and hills and rings
The first thing I met was a fly with a buzz
And the sky with no clouds
The heat was hot and the ground was dry
But the air was full of sound

I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la ...

After two days in the desert sun
My skin began to turn red
After three days in the desert fun
I was looking at a river bed
And the story it told of a river that flowed
Made me sad to think it was dead

You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la ...

After nine days I let the horse run free
'Cause the desert had turned to sea
There were plants and birds and rocks and things
there was sand and hills and rings
The ocean is a desert with it's life underground
And a perfect disguise above
Under the cities lies a heart made of ground
But the humans will give no love

You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la ...

Nate83 Sep 26, 2009 09:08 PM

Good on ya Tony for experimenting with offering temps. It is amazing what will happen when you start doing stuff like that. You really do see a different side of the animals. I think it is funny though that someone is already trying to discount the value of what you did by claiming the snakes haven't "figured" out the seasons yet LOL wow.........

DMong Sep 27, 2009 01:44 AM

>> "I think it is funny though that someone is already trying to discount the value of what you did by claiming the snakes haven't "figured" out the seasons yet LOL wow........."

#1 I wasn't discounting ANYTHING Tony did

#2 I was making a casual comment to Phil about HIS snake

#3 I think it is funny that YOU don't know what you're talking about..LOL wow.........

Next time, try to get the facts straight before you make a comment like that.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Tony D Sep 29, 2009 11:42 AM

I'm not sure if I did anything. I could find that next year they return to their same old routine. For what its worth I suspect that my animals being exposed to a natural photo period has an impact on their behavior. I call the concept total heat; which is a function of heat's intensity and the duration the snakes perceive it will be available. Simply put, shorter photoperiods require access to warmer temps to maintain adequate feeding response to keep them out of energy conservation mode.

This kind of follows along with disparate field observations reported here. Reasonably, not all habitats equally support extended feeding seasons. Relative to mountain habitats and those graced with rocky outcrops coastal plains habitat offers little thermal support for extending seasonal reptile activity hence Terry's hibernating FL corn snake and Franks winter feeding rattlers.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get blasted for over thinking this though. Oh well its the cost of addmission!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

DMong Sep 29, 2009 12:03 PM

All that seems very sound and resonable to me too. Snakes certainly do a multitude of different behaviors for any given condition they find themselves in.

I certainly didn't mean anything negative towards what you were, and are doing, so I'm glad you didn't take it that way Tony. I was merely making a casual friendly comment to Phil about his youngster's possible feeding behavior.

You are doing some very beneficial experimenting in my opinion, and all this can help everyone at some point.

Keep up the good work!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Nate83 Sep 30, 2009 12:16 AM

Doug I should take the advice of your signature line...You are correct I should have got my facts straight! I somehow missed that your comment was in reference to Phil's snake.....Sorry.

Nate Danforth

DMong Sep 30, 2009 11:05 AM

Hey man, no problem there bro!......I've misread plenty of posts before too..

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

rtdunham Sep 27, 2009 12:04 AM

>> You know my key question, why do keepers brumate kings from southernly areas, all the way to central amercia. You do know its not cold enough for brumation even in south fla, or here for that matter...

frank, I'm more of a herpetoculture guy than a field guy, so i'd like to hear more from you and some florida field herpers on the issue of brumation there. I can remember finding numerous red rats, for example, buried deep in rotting trees during the winter. they didn't seem to be in circumstances suggesting they were just there for the day or two and would amble out to hunt or find mates again during that season. Was I just misinterpreting what i saw? It seemed to conform to a brumation season. This was in central florida (st petersburg area)

FR Sep 27, 2009 12:19 PM

It actually doesn't matter if its Fla or not. But I will address your obervation first.

I too lived in Fla. Central fla. I would hunt ratsnakes on the coldest days in the winter. They would be out. Only on the coldest days??????????? You know when the blue northerns drop down and the night time temps were in the teens and days were sunny and 45F. Great days to herp. Crisp air.

Ok, back the snakes. As I mentioned, snakes have basic behaviors, they do not behave like we want them too in a shoebox. At different times of the year, they do different things. All snakes do these things no matter where they come from.
Because snakes are so good at conserving energy, they normally only feed for short periods during a year. Lets say, 8 to 10 decent sized meals a year is enough to regain all energy lost and actually grow. They normally do this if a couple months.

The rest of the time they conserve energy, which is done by lowering their metabolism. This also occurs on a daily basis. Even during foraging season.

Lets stop and start this over, when we say "THEY" that means all of something, like all colubrids or all snakes, or all kings or all ratsnakes, depends what we are talking about. So lets take a basic colubrid like kings. hahahahahahahahaha being its a kingsnake forum and all.

Ok, snake populations break down into several areas and are NOT represented in field studies. At least not very well. Most studies only pick a small part of the "THEY" then the information is applied to all of "They".

Neonates do not behavior like adults.
resident adults do not behave like transient adults
Transient adults do not behave like resident adults.
Old individuals(normally residents do not behave like the rest of the population.
Reproductive individuals do not behave like other non reproductive adults.

In the field work I have read about, these different segments are ignored.

Remember, with behavior, nothing is cut and dry or absolute. Which is what kills off are baby academics. They teach, so they want everything to be cut and dry.

With behavior, any physical change can impact "their" behavior. For instance a change in weather, drought, floods, cold and hot extremes, fires, etc. And intrusion by US field herpers trying to figure out what they are doing. All can and do impact and change their behavior. Again behavior is odd in that its again not absolute. The degree of change is not absolute, it can be from extreme to almost zero.

So lets pick normal conditions.

Neonates, feed and grow, therefore pick higher temps for as long as they physically can. Then they normally go down where ever they are at.

Resident adults, normally have a very set and successful routine. They normally return to a gathering of reproductive adults(other resident adults) They normally do this for about half the year(late fall, winter, and early spring) These gatherings culminate in laying the last clutch, then they move to feeding areas and feed.

Transient adults, are adults that do not or cannot maintain a set home range. So they are constantly on the move and are the easist for us to find. I call them gooners, the reason is, they spend much of their life gooning around. But, this does not mean they do not attempt to reproduce. Of course they will. The difference is, they do not have a set place to reproduce and often no set mate. Residents normally bond to a male and normally copulate with that male year after year.

The main difference between resident and transient reproduction is placement. Residents place their offspring in areas that are proven to be successful, so a high percentage succeed. This is a circle, and is why these areas have high densities. I call them hubs, not HUBBS(oh god). Transients place their nests in areas where the offspring have a poor survival rate. Which leaves a low adult population. They often do not lay their eggs in the same place year after year, residents do.

Old adults, are very successful residents, their difference is, their behavior is highly honed in a very successful way. They do not move much, and "know" exactly what to do and when, and they keep it to a minimum. They don't expend much energy and do not consume much. This part of the population IS VERY IMPORTANT. Its the least effected by adverse conditions. Large mass, little energy expenditure.

Now to answer your question. hahahahahahahaha

In both the north and the south, These types of snakes do different things like I indicate above. In the north, you see larger more predominate gatherings like So called DENS. These areas are allow for a much longer season, not just the ability to survive the winter. In the south, the animals are doing the same things, gathering in groups, etc. NOT FEEDING, at least the breeders.

Neonates and young pre sexually mature individuals, will feed for as long as prey is available. This is true in all areas, but common sense indicates that there is a much shorter feeding season in the nothernly areas. In the warmer areas, neonates and young will feed and MOVE year around.

THe problem with brumation is, people think these animals are bears or something, No even bears do not hibernate. They reproduce in dens in the winter. They attempt to take them to a temp which stops activity, and for the entire winter. Yet in nature, they never stop activity in the warmer areas, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FORAGING. And in the north, they(reproducing adults) go to areas where they can maintain bodily functions like crawling. Check inside dens and see whats happening. Other segments of the population, like neonates and non reproductive adults, will go down for and cease activity for much longer periods, Often in their foraging areas.

TO change the subject a little, I do that a lot! I would think most folks would ask better questions like, WHERE do the neonates go, what are they doing. You know, most dens in the north only contain ADULTS, Wheres the rest of the population. After all, only dying populations only contain adults. Healthy populations contain all segments. SOOOOOOOOOOOO using the word "they" must mean all parts of the population, not just the part you saw in the tree.

So in the case of this forum, I concentrate on breeding adults when I say "They" as that is the focal point of why people think they have to hibernate, brumate, their snakes, as in, TO BREED THEM.

Well, the breeders in nature is the segment that attempts to avoid hibernation, at all costs. They seek areas which will allow the longest possible active(behaviorally) season.

So yes, there are inactive animals in all areas, they will do that anytime of the year, when fuel(energy) is absent. They pick cool temps to avoid energy loss. Its not about winter, its about energy conservation, which is what REPTILES do year a round. Reproductive adults move to areas that support their needs as long as possible. Once an area cannot support those needs at least to a minimum, They will no longer utilize those areas. As you move farther north and those needs are not met, these snakes disappear. Any more questions, hahahahahaha Cheers

Bluerosy Sep 28, 2009 11:22 AM

..it can't be made into a sticky for this forum.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Gene Sep 28, 2009 08:54 PM

As I am not in a position to keep monitors right now I am looking at boas & kingsnakes. I have a black Mex king now & I love reading your posts, especially as they apply to field herping.

Thanks FR!

varanid Sep 28, 2009 09:39 PM

as someone who has found active rattlesnakes every month of the year in the panhandle, I can agree that snakes certainly try to stay active if they can. Burmation..well, I don't know. I'm not (yet) a real snake breeder. But in the field? Yeah, you can find snakes active during off seasons, just not as often. Not that you'll get many herps with deep snow on the ground, but it isn't like they just vanish during winter/fall either...

And I have to say, the first time I found a rattler in December I almost crapped myself...I wasn't expecting that for damn sure!!

JKruse Sep 27, 2009 10:49 PM

that 80's song....was it USA for Africa's "We Are The World"......thought that line was Tina Turner's.......or was it Stevie Wonder........

hmmmmmm......

*scratches head*

hell, what do i know......I'm still trying to plunger down the adult mice into these zonatas and create the glow corn by adding some Angolan python. But still, that America song rocked...!
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

zach_whitman Sep 29, 2009 01:11 AM

You said, "To stop feeding is the snakes telling you the conditions are no longer suitable and they have no ability to fix the situation"

This is not always the case. Just because in the wild a snake will choose the longest growing season possible does not mean that all snakes can override thousands of years of evolution and overnight start taking advantage of an infinitely long growing season (something that almost never happens in nature).

You said yourself that many wild adults probably can grow and breed with only a handful of meals a year. How many times a year do we feed our snakes? Certainly they can adapt to a wide range of conditions but at what expense?

As a group (no not everyone) we keep our snakes too warm, in a constant state of borderline dehydration, and with a metabolism ramped up as high as it will go. Is any of this natural? Nope. But again they are adaptable and they can get by and even thrive.

So again I will say that your statement above is not the only reason that a snake will stop feeding. I have several snakes (mostly adult male cal kings) that choose to stop feeding some time in the early fall. Maybe these are stock that originated from more northern populations, maybe not. They do this with no change in temperature conditions. My house is the same 70 degrees and my hot spots are the same 95ish degrees. So if they stop eating, are they telling me that conditions are unacceptable for digestion???? I think not.

Another interesting note. This summer I got a chameleon. He is housed in my snake room. This is the first time I have had an animal that required lamps in the snake room in many years. His lights are on a timer and don't go off until about 9 pm. It is now almost October and every single one of my snakes is still eating like there is no tomorrow. Hmmmm.... time to turn the lights off earlier?

I am going to start lowering the lights by one hour a week. until they are at natural light cycles for northern colorado. (I should have been doing this all along...) Any takers for how long it will take before those males stop feeding? My bet is the first week, maybe the second...

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