Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The forums seem to be dead so I thought maybe we could get some posts going by showing pics of your favorite alterna. Any pics whether they are insitu or one from your collection would be great and some background on the snake. I hope some people post. I hate seeing this great forum slow.

Here is a few lousy pics of my favorite. She is a 277 dark blairs. I really like the dark ones. I only have 6 to choose from but it's a collection in progress.

Chris Drake

This is not my favorite alterna... But, it is one of my favorite Black Gap hatchlings that I produced this season.. His parents were both produced by Dan Johnson..

~ Mike Russo

This is one of my favorite Alterna, She is a Red Bluff local produced by Adam..

~ Mike Russo

Those are some good looking graybands Mike. I really like that pinstripe. When you get a chance could you post pics of the parents of the anery. Very cool.

Chris

This is the father.. He was produced by Dan, #BGP01C1204 - He is also one of my favorite alterna.. I have a pic of the mother on my other laptop.. I will post it up asap..

~ Mike Russo

This is the mother, she is a female Black Gap produced by Dan #BGP01C1204.. She gave me 5 good eggs this season.

~ Mike Russo

Nice Mike. Looks a little thin though don't you think?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Very nice! Love the clean, light background in on contrast with the dark banding.
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Randy Whittington

Mike, very nice snakes.
You have some beautiful snakes
Adam

This is one of my favorite generic Alterna.. She is a young female that i bred for the first time this season. She produced 5 eggs and 4 of them hatched out for me.

~ Mike Russo

Mike,
That generic is one of the most striking/awesome alterna I have seen. Very nice. Was the father dark with bright orange as well?

JD

Thanks!! Both of the parents were nice clean dark blairs phase.. I have pictures of them, but they are not my photos, so i will not post/distribute them.

~ Mike Russo

It's tough to pick just one, and my favorite seems to always change. Right now the two favorites are my Dolan Creek Rd male and my East Sanderson female...

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Snakes to the Max

I also like alterna phase. Here's a female collected as a yearling from 5 miles east of Sanderson in 2003. She's my only wc alterna phase from Sanderson, and as a result my favorite wc Sanderson-lol. She had her first clutch-eleven offspring in 2008, and nine more this year.

This one looks a little bit like da-da

This one looks a little like mom.

Looks blind in left eye?? I always have a soft spot for the handicapped.

Eye is clear...it's a lousy pic. I should take another one to remove any sympathy votes, lol.

Robert

NUFF SAID......

i never would've guessed. As I said above, I have a soft spot for the handicapped. That snake has got to be getting old, hence handicapped. ha ha

eric......i will be at your front gate this june.....

I really was only kidding about your poor old snake. You gonna beat me up. At least you are giving me enough warning so I can buff up a little.

I think he is going to show up with a pitcher and two chilled mugs
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Bob, I can never say this enough. Thanks a million for taking him out of the gene pool! You've made Black Gap a better place. When did you find him? I thought you and George never journeyed
more than 2 hours from Don Williams' trailor at Langtry. BA

I think that "thing" is a Langtry. lol
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Steve W.

Gotta love the highly speckled River Roads...

Here's one of my favorites....anybody remember this animal from a Panther Canyon pairing?

That is one wild looking alterna. Very cool.

Chris

Awesome-my favorite on this thread so far...
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

One last pic....here's something you don't see everyday. This is the male from my Study Butte project that's an F1 from a wild caught pairing legally collected just outside of the park.

how long did it take to collect the pair??......george and found a female in the study butte mall parking lot.....and i knew of one other collected there....who collected the pair....if you don't mind my asking....i would like to start a study buute group..

My original group of 1.3 snakes are F1 animals produced directly by Glenn Fankhauser, M.S. According to Glenn, this rare locale is from a small area of Buttes that are about 1.5-2.5 miles South of Study Butte but before the entrance to Big Bend National Park. After conducting research in the Park, Glenn was heading back to his hotel in Study Butte and while passing through, caught a juvenile female in July of 1990. This caused him to focus on this area every time he visited TX to find a mate for this female. It wasn’t until 1997 when Glenn was finally able to catch a male from within 1 mile of the original female. He bred this pair for a while. The male was a blair’s phase and the female was an alterna. The original male died in 2009 but is survived by an F2 2009 Hatchling that Glenn held back. My group of 1.3 are F1 siblings from the original pair’s 2005 breeding and will attempt to breed for the first time in 2010. I'm glad to hear that someone else out there has an unrelated (possibly) animal from this area to possibly keep the bloodlines strong. Shoot me an email if you'd like more info. Below is a picture of one of the females who unfortnately is much more drab in color. Beautiful nonetheless. Thanks, Barin de la Torre

Have you ever been to that area? From Study Butte to the park entrance is nothing but gypsum and bentonite hills. I am sorry to tell you that the only way an alterna would be there is if an owl dropped it from the sky. I saw a group of these listed a few years back and when I quizzed the person selling them, they disappeared. By the way, the story was almost identical to the one you were told but the person telling it is different.
If they are locality and from near there, they would be from inside the park. Some odd looking alterna have been seen a few miles inside the park. Crappy thing for you is that you have some alterna (and very cool alterna)that you got as locality and they can only be called owl droppings.
Sorry
Rick

Unfortunately it's replies like this which make guys like me want to refrain from posting to these forums. Before I even posted this I always knew that there would be a guy like this trying make comments without knowing the facts. Rick, I don't know you personally but I seriously question your level of education for someone who attacks in a reply without knowing or questioning the facts.

This is the best reason to post on these forums, to get opinions from other people unless you have all the answers or don't want to hear the truth. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it is guys like me that keep people from selling alterna as locality when they are obviously not. I know you don't want to hear it and I am not accusing you of anything but don't you want to know the truth? You want to question my education? I lived there 25 years ago, I collected my first alterna in 72 or 73. I own property there, I spend several weeks every year in Brewster and Presidio Co. Answer my question, have you been there and seen the habitat that the animals you have, are said to come from?? Don't shoot the messenger.

Hi Rick, I just saw your post and sent you an email.

Please post your resolution of this lineage. I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in the gory details (but, then again I could be-lol). Thanks.

Robert

I know there are some hills way way behind the mall... Do you ever see anyone walk or cruise that area? Not likely.

StevenX

A simple search on the breeders name turns up some interesting projects. I will let people make up their own minds about things.

Institute for Creation Research / Can Divergent Species of Snakes Interbreed?

"A major field of creation research has developed within the last twenty years or so that attempts to demonstrate that speciation falsely supports the idea of evolution. One of the methods to demonstrate this fact is to show that many species can interbreed and produce offspring, which is quite the opposite of the prediction of evolution. In a paper entitled "Snake Hybridization: A Case for Intrabaraminic Diversity," to be presented at the Sixth International Conference on Creationism in Pittsburgh August 3-7, 2008, Glen Fankhauser and Kenneth Cumming have shown the successful production of offspring from interbreeding eleven species of snakes."
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Thanks Lance-that clinches things. As Joe said, total BS....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Yeah, jeez, that guy is really a kook!

but consider the source that sold him the info.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

You hit the nail on the head Joe! If he would of said Pepper's hill I would of accepted it but not from the person he named.

Hey guys,
Here's my take on this and for anyone interested, you can take it for what it's worth. First and foremost, I already sent an email directly to Rick apologizing for getting off topic and questioning his education. I've been a private collector and breeder for over 10 years now which is probably a rookie compared to some of the gents on this thread, but with all my animals, I strive to know the history of the animal which to me is more important than the looks of it. I know that nobody on this thread probably knows who the hell I am and believe it's human nature to question something that isn't in the "norm", especially when you have the number of guys here that know and trust who has logged the most hours hunting each particular locale. Let's get back on topic. I never claimed to have collected or produced animals (yet) from the Study Butte area but have released the name (G.F.) and history behind this locale. Let's take a quick background on the source...for those that know Glenn, he has over 20 years experience hunting in TX and went to school there as well. I contacted Glenn last night only because I felt that I had to defend him in this post. He gave me as many details including the dates and area as best to his knowledge considering that the original female was caught over 15 years ago. In my original post I stated that the original female was caught in 1990 which is what Glenn told me at the beginning of this month. Last night he confirmed the dates and stood to correct himself because he confirmed that it was the summer of 1992 that he went to college in Alpine and that was the year he was doing a lot of travelling to and from Alpine and BBNP. He also stated that 1992 was a VERY wet year and presumably a lot of prey was out which could have allowed some animals to travel longer distances in search of prey (in theory). Regardless, every subsequent year he went back to TX and concentrated on this area since he wanted to pair up his original female. It wasn't until 5 years later that he captured a male. Glenn himself told me that he knew there would be scrutiny regarding this locale which is why he never advertised himself or these animals to make any kind of profit and stated that the few animals he sold this year were only sold for $30. Glenn would have no reason to ever want or need to falsify any of this info. Here's some food for thought:
1) In Rick's original reply, he mentioned that he saw some of these animals for sale and the "story was very similar" only the name was changed and the breeder disappeared. That logistically would only make sense since there are definitely other animals out there from the original breeding...Glenn himself sold one of his last clutches this year before that original male died this year. It's kind of like the old game of "telephone"....somebody hears the story (not in it's entirety) and goes out, breeds the animals, and tries to sell the animals as "rare" only to fill in the missing gaps of the story with possible names, dates, and other info. Rick, not sure if you can shed some background on the person who told you that other story but maybe we can see where the story changes. My info comes directly from the source and the name/story is valid and not changing (with the exception of the date changing from 1990 to 1992).
2) In the email I sent to Rick, I agreed with him that there is no doubt, a lack of suitable habitat in the stretch of land between the town and the entrance to BBNP. It is unlikely to have a population living directly in the Buttes, which would make sense why nobody would care to log the hours doing fruitless hunting in this area. The capture of the original female was more of an accident if you will and created incentive to focus on the area a little more each subsequent year to pair up that female.
3) The word "impossible" is a strong word to use in this case although "unlikely" or even "highly unlikely" is not out of context. The town itself butts up to the Christmas Mountains so it could certainly produce an alterna.

I want to end with a reminder that this original thread was a posting of some of your favorite alterna pictures. The last thing I wanted to do was stir a pot over animals that I myself do not plan on advertising or marketing for sale since they are solely for my private collection. If the source were these animals came from can't be trusted, that would be like saying any animals that you don't collect with your own hands and see with your own eyes should be questioned which some alterna purists feel. Anyways, I still have and will continue to hold a high respect for the alterna nuts who I don't even know on this forum as I appreciate how passionate people get with these snakes. Take care, Barin

The only reason you bought that story, is because you bought the snakes.

No one here is buying that, not even our most gullible.

Did you bother to ask Glen if he was on his way back from Castolon?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

kinda reminds me of the last couple tucson reptile shows were u could buy pinstripe PURE RIVERS and PURE BLAIRS davis mts for 20.00, when asked about the patterns and who the sellers got adults from he named usual suspects, and said he just REFINED them, to produce the neat patterns, u know how we do it! (but there pure localitys) lol!!

That's Amazing...

(I can't throw this ball any easier for you to hit it out of the park)

yo...guyz....i got a photograph..member them???...of the snake george and i found at study butte....send me how...i'll try to scan/post it.....makes for a really good comparision to these captive produced snakes...funny you should mention that particular locale....but that's anudder story.....darth vader is from radio towers west of langtry....our black gap is in the files

Bob, if you don't have a scaner you can mail the pic to me and i will scan it and email or post it for you..

Let me know

~ Mike Russo

Did you find TWO in the study butte parking lot? I didn't think so.
Did you sell it for $30? I didn't think so.
Did you cruise the parking lot 7 more years looking for a mate? I didn't think so....

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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Is that the elusive West TX banded flat snake?

~ Mike Russo

>>Is that the elusive West TX banded flat snake?
>>
>>~ Mike Russo

yeah it was a tad flatter than I had hoped. somehow I missed it when road cruising the neighborhood
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Bob can correct me if I'm mistaken but I think he's trying to say they're found in Study Butte so maybe it's possible to find more than one at some point.
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Steve W.

>>Bob can correct me if I'm mistaken but I think he's trying to say they're found in Study Butte so maybe it's possible to find more than one at some point.
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>>Steve W.

I think I'm trying to say what are the odds of finding TWO?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I don't know the area but I would think that where there's one there's more. But like I said I don't know the area.
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Steve W.

What Joe is trying to say is that you are as likely to find a second one in his neighborhood as you are to find another in the SB Mall parking lot. The habitat around Study Butte will not produce alterna. If there was one there it was there for the same reason there was one in San Antonio. And he is correct as usual.
Later
Rick

I understand what your saying but Bob Assetto also found one there before Glen ever did. ?????
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Steve W.

I am talking about the Bob found! I am also with Joe on the others.

Oh. sorry I guess I didn't read everything. LOL. Hows it going Rick? I hope all is well.
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Steve W.

aint posting year....but we didn't ever spend much time there it was either to the south...river road or to the other way xmas mts....this was before the ALTERNATIVES were formed....before the alterna page......ain't gotta reason to lie...some still called em mexicana!!!!!

That is a nice looking animal, so you are on topic with that point for sure.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I also really like this 09' 277 pinstripe baby. He should be a good looking adult.

chris

Nice looking alterna Chris but not even close to being called a "pinstripe". Think about what pinstipe refers to. Those bands are way too wide to be called a pinstripe.

It was just wishful thinking huh!

Chris

Like I said its a cool looking snake with great contrast. I'd love to have it but I wouldn't call it a pinstriper. I wish I knew how to post photos, I would show a picture of an F1 Hueco from Dan Johnson via Don Shores that is perfect "10" pinstripe.

Here's a pinstripe, blairs and an anery 277 locality from the same clutch.

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Steve W.

Thanks for the correction. I really like that pinstripe Steve.

Chris Drake

just went out and got a pinstripe suit....macy's locale

The alterna phase I found in May of '06 on the the "south picnic area" cut on 118. I still can't believe the looks of this girl each time I see her.

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I have always liked that snake!

~ Mike Russo

Exquisite looking beauty!!! Never tire of seeing that snake. Congrats Brad. Have you ever paired it up????

As a matter of fact, I just sent her out on breeding loan to Colin S. in CA-he has a male from the exact same cut.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Sounds great! Hope it works out for both of you. I would prefer the male come to the females place but thats just me. BA

This is part of the Spanowicz "abomination" clutch that was born this year. It's going to be paired up with a sibling and sent packing to Mr. Russ Cormack in GA (along with his adult black and red Spanowicz female), so he can introduce his brother to alterna.

Wow – you use terms like “abomination” and “fish bait” just because it doesn’t come from your pure blooded, blond haired, blue eyed, locality master race? I have a different label for it – “one of the most beautiful animals I’ve ever seen”. If you’re looking for another concentration camp to ship the remainder of your non-locality/mutt/scum clutch off to, let me know. Unfortunately for you I don’t have a gas chamber, or run a bait shop, but I will be happy to give them a very good home, hopefully for the next 20plus years if I’m lucky. Unlike you, I couldn’t care less that one parent came from Limpia Canyon and the other came from the Christmas Mountains. Generics need lovin’ too.

The snakes from this clutch didn’t choose their parents, and they deserve a lot more respect than you are giving them. They are living, breathing creatures, not just objects to fuel your “I Have the Purest Locality Alterna Of All Time” ego trip. If you’ve reached the point where you care more about the lineage of your animals than the animals themselves, then maybe you need to take a step back and get some perspective.

I’ll end my little rant with a quote from Dr. Ian Malcom from Jurassic Park: “The lack of humility before nature that's being displayed here, uh... staggers me.”

MZ

Since you sound you have your heart in the right place (and more importantly, you may be an outlet for these “abominations” lol), I’ll go easy on you and say simply that I use words in my posts that are over-the-top FOR HUMOR. Now, go back and re-read my post with that at the absolute forefront of your mind and substitute the word “generic” for the terms “fish bait” and “abomination”, then re-read your post for a good laugh. You know, it’s really too bad, I wish I would have known about your interest in these clutches before I froze most of them...just kidding LOL.

Robert

Sorry I got a little grouchy. I have volunteered at the local humane society, and I get tired of seeing how people treat animals as disposable commodities. Too many people out there hold animals in too little regard. There are breeders of AKC dogs who drown puppies that don't conform to the breed standard. Pretty scummy IMHO. The list of horror stories is endless, and it strikes a nerve with me. Maybe this bit of context will help you understand why it chafed me that someone would get rid of such a beautiful animal simply because it has the "flaw" of being generic.

I accept that you used those terms tongue in cheek, and didn't mean them literally. My reply was also intentionally over the top, partly for a chuckle and partly to make a point. I wouldn't want new readers of this forum to get the impression that that type of thing actually goes on routinely with alterna breeders.

I hope there are no hard feelings. And I'm serious about taking in your strays from that clutch. I don't breed them, so they will be safely out of the locality gene pool!

MZ

No hard feelings. Like I said, it sounded like your heart was in the right place despite the disintegrating tone and that was more important to me. As far as your interest in the unfrozen strays is concerned, now I have a movie quote for you...Rod Tidwell to Jerry Maguire, from the movie Jerry Maguire. Can you guess what it might be? LOL!!!

Robert

Show me the money!! That is a super looking alterna. Why do generics always look so good?

Outbreeding, like Americans. LOL!

RUSS

Now thats funny! BA

That's why we're so damn good looking.

RUSS

i got something to say....but...it wont fly...

Selective breeding without boundaries.
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Steve W.

LOL!! Why yes, yes I can! PM me and we can discuss it privately, lest we get bounced by the TOS police and wake up in some Siberian gulag.

Help me, help YOU!!!!

Unfortunately the damn thing will probably turn black. He'll be stoked though. Nothing like having your beginner brother with better looking snakes than yourself!!

RUSS

Not my favorite but this nice little river rd hatchling was one of my keepers this year. She is a pretty clean looking alterna.

The darker snake is her mother and the first snake I ever got when I was a kid. Definitely my favorite. I dig the dark ones.

Come on! Keep those pics coming. Not every pic will be second guessed on locality, I don't think. At least everyone here is passionate about alterna and we all love them. Bob can we get a new pic of Vader?? I want to see what a 50 yr. old snake looks like.

Chris

This is one of the coolest and most unfortunate alterna I have ever found. Sorry, but I can't/wont reveal the locality.

mexico