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Although my green x normal Monster Island breeding didnt produce any Anery babies I do have some very interesting news. Carl B, who hatched out this Anery baby 3 years ago, invited me to his house this week. Although she is still quite small she is definately changing color.....to GREEN! His camera cord is missing so no recent pics but they are coming. He sees it every day so he doesnt see the change, but here is a pic of her as a hatchling. More to come.

I think pics taken of the same snake as it grows should certainly explain what I have been trying to figure out for years now. This is her at age 2 about 18". She is now age 3 about 2'and losing the purple. She wont breed next year in any event, but as difficult as this project has been for us every little victory is substantial. Thanks.

The second photo is washed out and hard to see the color. I definitely can see the green color in the first though!

That pic Carl took with a regular camera and I had to scan it in so its a little brighter obviously. The first pic has no green at all I dont think,lol. Here is another pic as a hatchling.

LOL!! Did I forget to mention that I am color blind!! I can notice that the two in the first photo "look different". How about that. I always say how red some milk snakes look to me and my wife laughs and tells me they are brown.

Its not a done deal yet, but its looking good! GREEN!

That is a nice eastern milk, but looks absolutely normal to me. At least it is well within the color range of a typical eastern milk.

>>That is a nice eastern milk, but looks absolutely normal to me. At least it is well within the color range of a typical eastern milk.

I have far too little experience to begin talking about what's typical. But those blotches look olive (olive green?) to me. Maybe that's typical. I've always thought of eastern milks the way the Audubon Society field guide describes them, with "chocolate-brown to reddish-brown, black-bordered blotches..."

Are you saying the snake doesn't look like it has olive green blotches? Or that yeah, it does, but that that's within the typical color range? I know there are more specialized books than the field guide, on Milks: Which are the better ones? Do any of them mention olive green blotches?

I am not an eastern milk expert by any stretch, but I do recall seeing lots of them (L.t.triangulum)in the early spring in Jo Daviess County, far NW Illinois. One of the few parts of Ill. that has any topography. They would hibernate in the bluffs and rock outcrops, but come down to the low country in very early spring. I would find them crossing gravel roads when there were still patches of snow on the ground. Strong, wiry snakes that would chew the heck out of you.
They were really diverse in coloration; most had brownish blotches, a few were more reddish. Some looked, to me, pretty much like the one which was pictured. If you want to call it green, that's fine. I agree that it looks olive or olive brown.
What is with this big deal with color morphs anyway? Do the odd ones sell for more $$? Sounds like a marketing ploy. I went to a herp show recently (my first one) and almost everything was labeled as one kind of color morph or another. Seems like no one appreciates the typical form. One table had 25 different cornsnake morphs, but none looked as nice as a typical cornsnake. As for me, give me the snakes which look like the ones pictured in the field guides. For example, can any milksnake morph under the sun looks as nice as a red milksnake (L.t.syspila)?
Damn, did I digress.

Thank you. Finally someone agrees with me that these are within the range of normal variation! Or maybe we are just the only two here that aren't colorblind? By the way, be careful your posts will disappear for going against the majority here. Ken.

Yes, I noticed that also. Let us just say that perhaps there may be some economic incentive for creating new "color morphs" and leave it at that. But if that particular eastern milk was placed in my hands, I would say "Thank you very much, nice eastern milksnake". It would never occur to me to say "Thank you very much, nice green eastern milksnake". LOL

My bone to pick with naysayers is in the proof. As a scientist developing this theory and working its way to proof...almost single handedly I might add...I can tell you that you wont be able to take that away at any price. And instead of being on the sidelines watching this or better yet HELPING, you take up the side of negativity. I just hope you spend as much time promoting the proof as you have rallying against it.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but that snake does not appear remotely green to me. I believe you when you reiterate the hard work you put into your project. That is commendable, but am I obligated to say "Wow, look at that green snake" when it obviously is a normal eastern milk? I do not believe so.

>>Not trying to rain on your parade, but that snake does not appear remotely green to me. I believe you when you reiterate the hard work you put into your project. That is commendable, but am I obligated to say "Wow, look at that green snake" when it obviously is a normal eastern milk? I do not believe so.

In Jeff's defense, I did see one of his "green" easterns at a show a couple of years ago. It definitely looks alot more green in person than his photos show. Is it an anery??? I don't believe so at this time (That's MY opinion). Over the past few years I have seen many photos of similar grey/olive/green easterns, and found one in the wild myself. The photos of the one I found (seen below in another post) also did not show off the true color as my eyes saw it. It was extremely silmilar to the one of Jeff's that I saw.

I spoke with a couple of people who have found easterns with similar coloration. No one that I have talked to has ever found a small (hatchling or neonate) L.t.t with this "green" coloration. Most opinions that I have received (outside of Jeff's) were that is "was just an old animal". I'm not sold on that theory either at this time.

I saw Carl's "anery" eastern that was hatched out from a WC female (if I remember correctly). When I saw it almost 2 years ago it was very small and definitely had no "red" in it. Is this one anery??? I don't know. I commend Jeff for having theories and hopefully he will come to some conclusions sooner than later. It is my opinion that it is ridiculous to keep arguing both sides of this discussion. To me 15 (or how ever many) years seems like a long time to produce no conclusions. I know there has been setbacks and all, but nothing? If I am sucessful, I hope to hell it doesn't take me that long to prove out the amel gene!

This is the "green" L.t.t. of Jeff's (along side my amel) that I saw for those who may not have seen the pics before. To my eye it was "greenish". Is it Anery (recessive) or within the range of "normal" easterns... yet to be determined IMHO. Good luck Jeff.

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Joe

OK. My pants are on (actually, I never take them off in my office... well, there was that one Christmas party back in 1995). There was another thread a few days back about "giant eastern milks", or some such oddity. They looked pretty much like nice big milks to me, but that poster was insistent about them being some sort of gigantic morph. It struck me as a marketing ploy.
Sorry, I do not see any green in this eastern milk. Still a nice looking animal.

In science sometimes its extremely difficult to prove a positive so we often leave the door open to DISPROVE a NEGATIVE. That said explain to me your thoughts on the following:
1-Why are Easterns Brown?
2-What colors have to be present to make Brown?
3-What color would you expect a ANERY Eastern to be and why?
4-Why have all these other "morphs" been found yet no "Anery"?
5-How many adult Easterns have you seen?
6-How many of those were green?
7-Do you see any "Anery" in the baby in the pic?In any of them?
8-How would you explain there being baby anerys in a population with no anery adults, AND green adults with no green babies?

My point is like Haley's comet someone else is doing the work to PROVE this. If you can DISPROVE this please have it. But if you really dont have an educated opinion please refrain from derrogatory nonsense, you dont want me to show up at your work and criticize it....especially if I'm not an expert,lol. Sometimes science takes a while, but in the mean time maybe you can think about these questions I've asked. From your answers others can appropriately value your opinion.

I really was not criticizing you or your project. It sounds like you are deeply involved in your work on eastern milksnake coloration and its genetic basis. I have no argument with your apparent passion or experience, particularly if you have been working so diligently on this challenging issue for more than a decade. I was merely commenting on the alleged green milksnake. It is not green. (Still, it is a nice snake).

now that one actually looks like it may be anery!!! wheres the green though??? is that a monster?
,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>8-How would you explain there being baby anerys in a population with no anery adults, AND green adults with no green babies?

jeff, i'm generally sympathetic to your side in this discussion, but there's an easy explanation for the first part of question #8: when a recessive gene deviates from the norm, and produces a change that will ultimately change the color of the animal, it first occurs as a het. As a new morph reproduces in a population, it's entirely logical that there would be many, many more het than homozygous animals in the population. Someone might find an amel of species xxx, and we might say "oh, look, an albino occurred." But the real evolutionary event was that A HET occurred. That event, and many subsequent ones as the number/percentage of hets increased, just isn't observable. When two hets finally bump into each other and reproduce, then there's an amel, and for the first time the genetic change has become observable.

Now, why there are green adults and no green babies? That's harder to explain from a genetic standpoint, so it's good you're working on it. But ontogenetic changes occur, i suppose, in all species? Just one example, the snow honduran trait is basically silver and white as a hatchling: As adults, they're yellow and white, or pink and yellow and white, etc. No one's seen a pink, yellow and white baby snow honduran.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Terry, I understand that. Carl's little Anery came from a normal wc and it was the only one in a clutch of 8. I had a green one lay this year, and all the babies came out normal. It been difficult to find both male and female that will feed and are established adults at breeding season. Getting them going is a process, alot more work than most snakes is an understatement. I proved this year that my large male ISNT het, and alas I lost that female after she laid so I gotta start again. Anyways, if someone could come up with a logical explanation I would be inclined to drop the subject,lol. But I simply havent heard one yet, all people are saying is the same thing over and over. Like Shultz from Hogan's heros "I see nothing, NOTHING".

I can really only answer a couple of your questions. I have seen maybe a dozen eastern milks in my life; all were in the wild. I'd seem them on rural roads while running. I only lived within their range for a year or so. None were green; most were typical brown, a couple were more reddish. My recollection, and that is all I have, is that the the brown saddles ranged from dark brown to sort of lighter greyish brown, like the one in your picture. Then again, if I were a "scientist", perhaps my observational skills would have been better.

>>My bone to pick with naysayers is in the proof. As a scientist developing this theory and working its way to proof...almost single handedly I might add...I can tell you that you wont be able to take that away at any price. And instead of being on the sidelines watching this or better yet HELPING, you take up the side of negativity. I just hope you spend as much time promoting the proof as you have rallying against it.

As a scientist you should know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis. Ken.

You should know the difference between proof and a hole in the ground too. Still think OJ is innocent because the glove didnt fit? Is this hatchling Anery or am I seeing things still? LMAO

>>You should know the difference between proof and a hole in the ground too. Still think OJ is innocent because the glove didnt fit? Is this hatchling Anery or am I seeing things still? LMAO
>>

Wow, you amaze me with your inability to comprehend. I have no idea if that is an anery or not, and I have no idea why you obsess over it. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT YOUR SO CALLED GREEN ONES LOOK NORMAL. Period. Bottom line. Huffing and puffing will not convince me otherwise. To quote Joy Behar.. "So what, who cares?" Ken.

>>...One table had 25 different cornsnake morphs, but none looked as nice as a typical cornsnake. As for me, give me the snakes which look like the ones pictured in the field guides...
>>Damn, did I digress?

Well, yeah. But i couldn't agree more.

But I do find some morphs very interesting, too. There's room for 'em all, I suppose. I think the interest in the "olive" Ltt, for ex, is because when people develop a passion for something, they also find interest in its variability. If eastern milks are your favorite, it enhances the passion to observe the ways they can vary. I think that's why people like to keep track of locality animals. there's often a different appearance from one locality to the next. Most of us would find it boring to have ten specimens of a milk ssp, or a kind of king or rat or whatever, that were identical to one another.

Good points. I can understand the passion behind the locality zealots and I appreciate it. Those guys are sort of nuts, but in a good way. I am old enough to still be flat amazed at what is available for purchase at just the cost of a nice dinner. Sensory overload just to see all those tri-colors and kings, let alone be able to buy 'em.
Still and all, dude's snake ain't green.

>>Good points. I can understand the passion behind the locality zealots and I appreciate it. Those guys are sort of nuts, but in a good way. I am old enough to still be flat amazed at what is available for purchase at just the cost of a nice dinner. Sensory overload just to see all those tri-colors and kings, let alone be able to buy 'em.
>>Still and all, dude's snake ain't green.

Funny!

Here's a link to a color chart. It doesn't (can't?) represent the full array of colors and subtleties on many snake species, but it's interesting. Some of those colors on the bottom row seem pertinent to Ltt. (They won't help THIS discussion though, since they assign color numbers, not names: there's no "olive" and certainly no "typical wild-caught Eastern Milksnake blotch color". Other charts would hone in on many dozens of colors just in the ranges of those colors on the bottom row of this chart.
color chart

You respond like that because you THINK you know something about Easterns because...you caught a few before?? Have you found a green one? Have you bred Easterns? I digress..
I think its fair to say that Easterns are the most caught ssp of milksnake anywhere, fair thought right? Given the nature of the animal(fossorial) anerythristics should be able to survive well in the wild right? All things considered, there SHOULD be a healthy amount of them found. Shoot, a whiteside, some hypos and several Albinos have been found over the years....yet where are all the anerys?? I have found a few yet they were all small. In the same spot where I found them I have found adult GREENS, yet no small greens....My quick math tells me that baby anery easterns morph into these green adults, and I have set out to prove it.
Brown = Red and yellow--baby easterns are red
Green = Purple and yellow---baby anery easterns are purple!
This isnt the case of seeing what I want to see, this is a case of knowing what I am working with yet popular opinion has yet to change. Personally, I think the idea of of producing a SNOW eastern now is the most intruiging morph out there....the snake should be a bright green and white adult! And if it can grow to a nice 3.5-4'?? Ya, thats something to make you say WOW!

>>You respond like that because you THINK you know something about Easterns because...you caught a few before?? Have you found a green one? Have you bred Easterns? I digress..
>> I think its fair to say that Easterns are the most caught ssp of milksnake anywhere, fair thought right? Given the nature of the animal(fossorial) anerythristics should be able to survive well in the wild right? All things considered, there SHOULD be a healthy amount of them found. Shoot, a whiteside, some hypos and several Albinos have been found over the years....yet where are all the anerys?? I have found a few yet they were all small. In the same spot where I found them I have found adult GREENS, yet no small greens....My quick math tells me that baby anery easterns morph into these green adults, and I have set out to prove it.
>>Brown = Red and yellow--baby easterns are red
>>Green = Purple and yellow---baby anery easterns are purple!
>> This isnt the case of seeing what I want to see, this is a case of knowing what I am working with yet popular opinion has yet to change. Personally, I think the idea of of producing a SNOW eastern now is the most intruiging morph out there....the snake should be a bright green and white adult! And if it can grow to a nice 3.5-4'?? Ya, thats something to make you say WOW!
>>

Thank you, I have now officially spewed Pepsi all over my laptop after reading your post. Keep the humorous posts coming, please. Laughter is truly the best medicine. Ken.

As usual another positive post by KK. When you get to F2 with any eastern milks you let me know would ya.

>>As usual another positive post by KK. When you get to F2 with any eastern milks you let me know would ya.

We've had this talk before, I don't breed snakes. Not sure where you are getting this idea.

All I'm saying is "I DO NOT SEE GREEN IN THOSE MILK SNAKES THEY LOOK NORMAL TO ME." This is my opinion, nothing more. Ken.

>>>I have found a few yet they were all small. In the same spot where I found them I have found adult GREENS, yet no small greens....My quick math tells me that baby anery easterns morph into these green adults, and I have set out to prove it.
Brown = Red and yellow--baby easterns are red
Green = Purple and yellow---baby anery easterns are purple!

jeff i think you stumbled into a magical mushroom patch! perhaps some study on color mixing would help out as well red&yellow dont make brown and purple&yellow dont make green.
i dont think you have a grasp on color mixing, additive and subtractive primary colors so ive linked a good ref.site on colormixing for you.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
color mixing

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Its great that you found a fingerpainting website and I know you spend most of your day there drooling but how about ANSWERING the question? All you do is try on poke holes in theories instead of having an opinion of your own. My post was short(incomplete)but made a point--I guess you missed it. If babies are hatched RED(you cant argue that can you?), how do the adults turn BROWN? What colors are added along the way? Then, working backwards, from the "greenish" adults, what color do you TAKE AWAY to get RED?? Of better yet go to your finger painting site and mix purple and a dark yellow and see if you dont get a nice olive green!
Now on this pic you can see the same "anery", a normal brown, and a really dark green...its my thought that its an in between stage. Time will tell.

>>Its not a done deal yet, but its looking good! GREEN!
>>

check out this green-phase eastern hognose from the hognose forum. link is:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1742192,1742346

reminds me of your Ltt.

jeff, hope is good...
good luck... after 15 yrs. you REALLY need it.
anerythrism would effect eye color as well, huh?
now are green easterns anery?, or are anery easterns green?
what about monsters? or anery monsters???
perhaps oneday the riddle will be solved.
perhaps not.
carry on
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>jeff, hope is good...
>>good luck... after 15 yrs. you REALLY need it.
>>anerythrism would effect eye color as well, huh?
>>now are green easterns anery?, or are anery easterns green?
>>what about monsters? or anery monsters???
>>perhaps oneday the riddle will be solved.
>>perhaps not.
>>carry on
>>,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

Why aren't anery Hondos green? Ken.

Ken, there is some thinking going on here, I am not looking at the snake and saying..."GREEN, YAHOOO!!" What color do you add to RED to make it BROWN? Could it be the same color you add to PURPLE to make GREEN?? I think it is, it makes sense. And where are the Anery Eastern milks(that was the thread you responded to)? To me there is too much anecdotal evidence to ignore. I understand you want PROOF, I do too, but what would make you happy? The original thread is following the color change as Carl's Anery ages. It is SLOWWWW growing, but at least he could get his going, more than I could do. These are tough. Dont believe me? Wagering is against TOS but we can work something out. I can send you pair and see how far you get with them,LMAO.

>>>What color do you add to RED to make it BROWN? Could it be the same color you add to PURPLE to make GREEN?? I think it is, it makes sense.

roflmao please tell us what that magical color is jeff???
did you look at the link i provided in the other post on colormixing? really it will help you understand how color in light,paint,dyes effect what we see. a baby anery eastern imho would look like a charcoal corn, but a purple one would be really cool.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am sooooo glad you know exactly what they would look like, ROFLMAO! We can all sleep at night with you on top of it! Joker, we KNOW what babies look like, I GOT PICS! My point is what will the adults look like?? Answer the question, and while you are at it explain why the normal type is Brown!

>>Answer the question, and while you are at it explain why the normal type is Brown!

Instead of trying to figure out why normals are brown, how about an explanation of why your "green" ones aren't green. Ken.

Just answer the question

>>Just answer the question

I do not know the answer to the question, therefore I cannot answer. The only thing I can prove is that I have an opinion. And my opinion is "THOSE MILKS AIN'T GREEN." I'm offering an opinion, that is all. Why can't you take it for what it's worth? Ken

>>Ken, there is some thinking going on here, I am not looking at the snake and saying..."GREEN, YAHOOO!!" What color do you add to RED to make it BROWN? Could it be the same color you add to PURPLE to make GREEN?? I think it is, it makes sense. And where are the Anery Eastern milks(that was the thread you responded to)? To me there is too much anecdotal evidence to ignore. I understand you want PROOF, I do too, but what would make you happy? The original thread is following the color change as Carl's Anery ages. It is SLOWWWW growing, but at least he could get his going, more than I could do. These are tough. Dont believe me? Wagering is against TOS but we can work something out. I can send you pair and see how far you get with them,LMAO.

Jeff please step down from the pedestal and listen to what I am saying. I'm not asking for proof of anything, and I certainly do not want you to send me snakes, pictures, DNA, sheds, or anything else. I'll say it as clearly as I can one more time.... "Your snakes look like normal eastern milks to me." That is what I have been saying the whole time, nothing more, nothing less. Take it for what its worth. Ken.

No pedestal needed, the air up here is cleaner and you can see better I guess. Just make sure that when I am proved right you spend an equal amount of time and energy singing my praises as you do in tearing me down. The RECKONING is coming,LMAO!

Jeff,

Just tell Carl to send her to me. I'll take some good photos for the forum guys .
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Joe

But Carl really is in the dark ages,lol. I didnt know I was going to going to his house that night or I would have brought my camera...only to tease you with more bad pics.

Jeff, you're always getting hassled about your photography... or the lack there-of. Ha ha ha! Not that I have much room to talk...

-Cole

Nice L.T.T.
IT reminds me of this one that I had a few years ago.




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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"

>>Nice L.T.T.
>>IT reminds me of this one that I had a few years ago.
>>

Nice. This one that I found this year looked very similar to yours as well. I wish it had been a female as it was found fairly close to where my amel male was found.

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Joe

Joe do you mean the front yard or the back yard, LMAO. See you Sat!

Seems like I have seen quite a few Easterns with this color phase on this forum over the past few years...maybe escapees from Monster Island??
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
2-4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Sinaloan
2.4 Het Albino Sinaloan

Jeff I wouldn't want you to give away the island location your milks come from but I just wondered is the island in one of the eastern bays, sounds, one of the direct coastal islands or farther offshore where their really seperated by some distance from the mainland shore.
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Randy Whittington

All of this makes me want to start breeding milk snakes again. The location answer is in old publications. Regardless of opinions on genetics, Jeff is to be commended on being able to locate these animals in the wild. Everytime I've visited the island I've been skunked.

OK, I'll bite. What is "Monster Island"?

Never mind, I figured it out.
Peace.