Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this pr breeding last year.They are problematic and will not feed regular I love them but am tired of fighting with them to eat.I have collected only 6 of these in my life.

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Archie Bottoms

I was over with Carl B earlier this week and saw his Arizona NM milks. He was also mentioning a range extension to the western border almost into Cali! They still look pretty much the same as eastern Az, but a 100 plus mile range extension doesnt happen every day/month/year.

He talked about them, I didnt see them. Gotta travel with a camera more often,sorry.

Those are nice looking celaenops. They're probably ready to shut down for the year, and are likely to be even more difficult to feed through the winter. You may look into cooling them down, or passing them along to someone who can (at least for the winter). Just some thoughts and suggestions!

-Cole

Are these from Albany? Looks like some gentilis influence in them. Neat snakes.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

These are from near plains texas about 2 miles from new mexico yocum county pure celinops.I would love to get them a new home I am a viper rattlesnake venomous person.No real room in my collection for Milks tho I love them they just do not fit.
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Archie Bottoms

I also think celinops could be divided at least in to 3 more subs.
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Archie Bottoms

If not 3 at least 2. I've even noticed a difference in the amount of eggs that they lay.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

I dont think clutch size has anything to do with population or subspeciation. I think they were talking about the Tx,NM, and AZ locales. The TX locale keys out as NM, but the body type is much more like Annulata. The AZ and NM populations have a different body type and lighter ground color on the average. I think you would find Williams' 1988 book a good read.

Yes and the eggs they lay and how many are more observations on why they could be changed into another ssp.

Now exactly what is a celeanops? Midwestern temporalis?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

IT IS A NORTH WEST DIXONI OR A WESTERN ANNULATA OR A SOUTHERN GENTILIS OR AS MY SON THE GENIUS CALLS THEM ANNUCELAGENANOPS.That is what he calls them.lol
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Archie Bottoms

I think you should try and get the Williams book "Systematics and Natural History of the American Milk Snake". This not only explains what ssp. there are but it describes in detail the scalation and natural history. Clutch size is not a parameter measured for subspeciation.

I am stating observations that I have made between the different looks and locals of them. Is there something wrong with making observations?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

You know The differences are more than the likeness and that is and has to be a factor .Every one has an opinion and some can accept that some will not.An alpine snake is not the same as a langtry or a andrews county or even the very rare crane county celinops.
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Archie Bottoms

Hey, no problem at all. Make a ton of observations, just realize that it takes more than a few observations of a few snakes to even understand never mind change subspecific species. You could be Darwin himself so take no offense, just continue to pile up the data first.

First of all, I didn't say I wanted to change any ssp. I just stated a couple reasons why I could see them doing it if they did. There are plenty more reasons than just those as well.

I think you need some of your own advice here. Than maybe the green, anery, monster island parasite puzzle will be complete. Have a nice day. LMAO all day.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

egg size and numbers

.....yes...corns ......you can almost tell if they are crossed by egg size and numbers.....so makes sense with milks too...

....celaenops...yea....I want some but one problem is the pics are all different....some look anulata some look gentilis crossed with whites and yellowing.....and some look like we think they should.....well...I think they should....

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You want to find them a new home? That really shouldn't be too hard, they're good looking! I'd like them but there aren't really many food options around Montana for picky eaters.. I'm sure there are plenty of milk aficionados that could handle those pretty guys!

Take 'em. You've got help nearby.

-Cole

They eat fuzzys the male does fine the problem is the little lady she will only eat peramiscus fuzzys .I have been trying to get her to switch and she will go weeks with out feed unless she gets what she wants.Those fuzzys are easy for me to get in winter just not summer.Male ate yesterday I will head to the cotton field and get her fuzzys tomarrow.Damn Deer mice eaters.
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Archie Bottoms

Have you brumated them? Did they come out voracious? Is the female or male larger one? Have you tried alternative meals like lizards or chicks? Just wondering their history, that's all. Thanks for the info!

The female is larger I found them under a piece of tin breeding in may 08.They bred for a week off and on ..........No eggs resulted they were young and she absorbed from stress I thought.She was problematic feeding from the start.She will not eat lizards only peramyscus mice deer mice pinkies.The male eats regular fuzzys.Always has.After brumation she ate only sparadicly .The male always eats.I did not attempt to breed this year at all.I have a lot of venomous projects and these have been on the back burner.These are kick ass snakes and I had decided to release them where I got them but I hurt my back and was unable to return to the spot.Now I am worried she is shutting down for winter and will not make a brumation.In 30 years looking for these I have found 6 3 males 3 females.So these are hard to let go of.I have been thinking of giveing them to a good milk snake keeper who would give them the time they need and mabie when they breed I WOULD GET HALF THE BABIES ON THE FIRST LITTER.But I have not decided yet.These are still a good locality pr of snakes not inbred mutts.
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Archie Bottoms

I understand, how about a new breeder with some help from the more experienced guys? I would not breed these for profit, and probably just pick one from the clutch and give the rest away. Though she would not breed until she really had some weight on her (I want healthy mom and healthy babies). I'm still not sure myself, but this may be a good foot in the door with extremely quality animals. Currently I only have two snakes (not breedable), with a third (also not breedable) on the way, so they would indeed get attention, and would be primarily pets, and breeders second (though if conditions were right I would most definitely breed them for the good of captive genetics). Thank you for your time in answering my questions, and there is no pressure, I don't have the accommodations at the moment so you can keep your babies as long as you like!

Send me a pm
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Archie Bottoms