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Hey You Motley breeders who have

boaphile Oct 04, 2009 03:48 PM

Hey you Motley breeders who have had a "Super" Motley pop out of a breeding where only one parent was a Motley! Have any of you ever had that happen where the male breeder was the Motley and the female was not a Motley? I'll bet that hasn't happened.

You folks who have had that happen. Please let us know that as well. I know this has happened to several different breeders but I suspect the mother of that "Super" in either the purple or black form, has always been the Motley half of that equation.

Please report your experiences. It does not matter at all if the resulting baby was born alive or lived. I am just wondering if this has only happened where the mother was the Motley. I'll report why when I see the results from this informal poll.

Thank you!

Jeff
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Replies (13)

Wirlwindboaz Oct 04, 2009 04:33 PM

I could be wrong, but didn't a male Motley sire the litter where the Purple Patternless boas popped up?? I thought the mother was a normal and the father was a Motley....

It's been so long, I really could be wrong.

BrocksBoids Oct 04, 2009 05:25 PM

Jeff,
I produced a Purple Patternless from a Motley male and a normal female last year. 27 perfect babies and no slugs and one kinked still born PP of course. My hard drive just crashed but if my buddy can pull my pics off it I'll send you the pics I took of it.

Brock

BNixon Oct 05, 2009 12:13 AM

Brock, I might still have those pics somewhere...I will have to look but shoot me an e-mail.
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Brandon Nixon

JoshKetchum Oct 05, 2009 11:21 AM

Hey Jeff
The first super we produced was from a male motley to a normal female that was before we had even bred motley to motley.
We have also had a few dead pop out from male motley to normal.
We have produced two dead albino super motleys. One from a het female to a motley het male and the other the female was a motley het bred to a jungle het if I remember right.
-----
Josh Ketchum
Sunshine Boas

tibor Oct 04, 2009 06:07 PM


I had 2 patternless albino motleys..sire was a motley

pithons Oct 04, 2009 06:51 PM

Wow. very interesting thread.. Tib, what happened to those 2 white ones..

JasonRobeck Oct 05, 2009 12:24 PM

male motley father. He had deffects, was premature and didn't live.

minicopilot Oct 05, 2009 03:09 PM

Poor little thing! Sorry for your loss.

FrankM Oct 05, 2009 03:12 PM

Jeff, as you know from our conversation that I produced two litters from breeding a pastel monstertail male to motley females. There were three "super motleys" in the first litter and five in the second. Real WTF moments for sure. Frank
Link

Pithons Oct 05, 2009 04:19 PM

What kind of snake is that in the your link.. Moonglow besque?

marc_n Oct 06, 2009 12:36 PM

I bred a male Blonde T positive Albino to a female Motley last year & unfortunately she produced a premature litter including 2 super Motleys. I paired the same two together again this year & again had a preature litter including super Motleys!

Not just a one off fluke it seems!!

Marc
www.selectivebred.com

prehistoricpets Oct 06, 2009 03:11 PM

happen this season.

We bred a male Ivory Retic (theorized to be a form of leukism, from a multi-allelic bracket of animals we call platinum. Also theorized to be 2 forms of "hets" which look similar and function on the same gene locus).

This male ivory was bred to a virgin female albino (recessive) tiger (incomplete dominant). The resulting clutch was split between normal platinums het for albino and tiger platinums het for albino, as you would expect. The wrench in the gears, was that 2 babies hatched out similarly to what you have experienced with the motleys. 1 is an albino platinum tiger, the other is a pure white black eyed leucistic. This prompted my brain to render through genetics courses long since forgotten. There are certainly people who can explain this better than I on here... but what appears to be happening with the motleys and what happened with us appears to be what is explained here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/v725546322233wg2/

Basically an animal which is genotypically heterozygous, is phenotypically homozyous. I am curious if anyone has bred their homozygous motleys from such a breeding to a normal, and had it breed like a homozygous motley- or if it bred like a heterozygous (normal) motley?

Interesting... interesting... interesting...
Prehistoric Pets

BoaMorph Oct 09, 2009 02:41 AM

We had a litter in June '08 from a first time breeding of a female Motley poss het albino to a coral albino. She delivered a litter at POS+107 that consisted of 22 slugs, 6 normals, and 2 supermotleys (1 of these a kinked up d.o.a.). All 8 babies were female.

My thoughts went immediately to parthenogenesis, with this litter having similarities to a case posted extensively on KS two or three years ago that I recall was a male jungle bred to a female hypo with all the offspring being female and apparently superhypos and normals. The all female offspring was consistent with the female offspring demonstrated to have been produced parthenogenetically by a Burmese python. That journal artical can be viewed/downloaded from www.nature.com/hdy -just enter "parthenogenesis Burmese python" (without the quotes) in the search box, click go, and it will be the only search result. However, in that study the offspring were shown to be genetically identical to (i.e., clones of) their mother.

Similar to that weird hypo litter, this mama Motley's offspring are clearly not genetically identical to her because none of them are Motley, only normals and supers. Initially, this result would also seem to imply that the parthenogenetic mechanism would be one of those that results in each offspring being homozygous at all loci (i.e., that each chromosome pair is comprised of two strands of DNA that are exact replicas). However, the all female result is contradictory because sex determination in boas is ZW (not XY as in mammals, for example), with ZW being female, ZZ being male, and WW being non-viable. As such, the completely homozygous result would produce all males (ZZ) and non-viables (WW) - this is the case with Komodo Dragons, for example. So, if this Motley litter result is due to parthenogenesis, it must be by a mechanism different than what was demonstrated in Burmese pythons, and also different from what has been demonstrated in some other snakes, lizards and other critters.

This litter result obviously is not necessarily a result of parthenogenesis. Similar litters resulting from male Motleys bred to normal (not Motley) females certainly would seem to indicate that parthenogenesis is not the answer (though I didn't see much regarding the sex of the offspring in the other responses; if other than all female, could indicate a different phenomenon altogether). Perhaps Mr. Ronne has a theory?

Jeff - I'm out through the weekend but can send you pics and additional info next week if you're interested, including "weird litter" summaries from a few other breeders. Interesting puzzle.

Steve Reiners

www.BoaMorph.com

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