Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A co-worker brought these pics in today of a snake he found in his backyard. My first thought from the pattern was a baby black snake. The head has me a little puzzled though. Was he maybe just flattening it out as a defensive behaviour or is this something else?

-----
Liann

He was found in South Central PA by the way.
-----
Liann

Yes, that is a typical looking juvenile Black Ratsnake. And that is a very typical defensive posture for them to display as well, many times vibrating their tale at the same time when agitated.

Nice find!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks Doug! I was pretty sure that was what he was, but I wanted some back-up before telling my coworker that.

>>Yes, that is a typical looking juvenile Black Ratsnake. And that is a very typical defensive posture for them to display as well, many times vibrating their tale at the same time when agitated.
>>
>> Nice find!
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
-----
Liann

Your welcome!,.....

BTW,....The fact that it came from the area you mentioned, there is NO geneflow influence from any other ratsnake subspecies, so that individual should become a more solid black than many others can display from other parts of the country as well, although it ccould still exhibit some hints of pattern later on too. They can all have some variation.

That should be a pretty nice one!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The Black Rats from NJ are usually very black adults as well for the same reason you mentioned.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Exactly!,....same thing with Yellow Ratsnakes where I live on the east coast of central Florida, there is ZERO influence from ANY other ratsnakes whatsoever. I have seen some real smokers from this area in the past that are very clean and bright yellow.

Same exact thing would go for those Blacks way up there in NJ in the northeast corner of the country as you mentioned, nothing else around there at ALL to water down the ssp.

You've probably seen this one several times before, but he is just an awesome, beautiful classic example of a Yellow, I figured you wouldn't mind seeing him once again..LOL!

take care!, ~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

why why why aren't north american colubrids more popular in the pet trade?

Yeah,...well, some of the N.A milks(although sometimes difficult to maintain) and kings are pretty popular in the hobby, but as you mentioned, I guess the very common obsoleta complex sort of gets overlooked with so many of the other types of snakes in the entire world so readily available today.

It's funny how this hobby/industry goes around in cycles too, with certain snakes being VERY popular one day, then later on it's entirely something else. It's like some keeping up with the fashion industry.

Me,.....I have always just kept and bred what I like, NOT what somebody else likes. When you start keeping many things that you really don't have an interest in yourself, eventually it seems the snakes are the ones that tend to suffer for it.

In my opinion, snakes don't "necessarily" have to be an "atomic" glowing purple and magenta with a paisley pattern to be interesting,.......but sometimes that can help..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>why why why aren't north american colubrids more popular in the pet trade?

You mean like Cornsnakes and California Kingsnakes? LOL

I think a lot of NA Ratsnakes are common enough that people tend to want the brightly colored captive morphs. But a nice solid black Black Ratsnake, a bright orange "Everglades" Ratsnake, or a "perfect" Yellow Rat have their afficionados.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

There's corns and cal kings---but there's 100s of non venomous species in NA that are good captives. Thamnophis is underrated by hobbyist, Neroida is totally ignored. Apart from corns, Elaphe seems to be really lacking. Subocs, Pits and Lampropeltis have a devoted following at least. Indigos are difficult just due to size, but have a cult following too.
Lets not forget oddball snakes--Longnoses, patchnoses, ringnecks, ground snakes...all of those are easy enough captives but totally ignored. Nastycophis isn't popular but I can understand that--cool displays but high strung. Same with Coluber.

Hell, take a look at other colubrids. African and South American colubrids are sparse on the ground too. Mole snakes, house snakes, skaasteppers, beak nosed snakes...all uncommon.

South america...I don't know of any south american colubrid common in the pet trade really. Tiger rats are present, but have a restricted following (for several reasons).

Asian colubrids are better represented--beauty snakes, old world rat snakes, etc.

Tiger rats are present, but have a restricted following (for several reasons)

What do you got against Spilotes? lol

Nate

>>Tiger rats are present, but have a restricted following (for several reasons)
>>
>>What do you got against Spilotes? lol
>>
>>
>>
>>Nate
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

n/p

I love tiger rats, but they're big animals--don't they get like 7' or better? Plus they have that infamous temper!

Yeah 7' or better, the temper is mostly bluff of my three. But it's hard to beat a large black and yellow snake that isn't "completely" insane.

they're right....limited following....

why?....

huge, high strung, and USUALLY wild caught spilotes is all they/we see.....

.......that's why.........

...make them common, and captive and more will buy them...

then they will be common and cheap...and noone will want them anymore again....

round and round we go....

.
.
-----
.

...(______________________)

I think I see what your saying....

If they have a limited following why would they become common and cheap? All mine are CBB and I'm working on making more.

I keep 15 snakes in amount of space I could keep 600 so what?

Nate

Hey, I've got my retics My entire group of 16 house snakes will be cheaper to house and feed than my 2 non dwarf retics. I'm all for keeping what you like--it's what I do--but I totally understand people not wanting to commit the space and money needed to manage the bigger stuff. I mean crap, by the time I buy the retic, and an adult cage, and heating for said cage, and feed for a year...that's a non-trivial chunk of change. Rabbits ever week @ 8 bucks a pop loosing freezer space? An 8' cage, which is like 700 bucks? Those are significant barriers to entry The amount of people willing to commit to something *usually* has an inverse relationship to how hard and/or expensive it is! A ground snake would be fine in a 5 gallon tank for life, and eat what, bugs that might cost you 3 bucks a week? Lot easier to commit to that.

would kill for an edit feature--and tiger rats are a fantasy of mine but I'm not expanding beyond retics, kings and housies for a good bit. That's enough to work with. I have this fascination with large colubrids--I love cribos, mussuranas, tiger rats, big bullsnakes...they're so much fun!

>> "round and round we go...."

HAHAHA!!,..man,..ain't THAT the truth!

One big cycle that keeps rolling like a giant snowball..LOL!

What's new will be old, and what's old, will be new again..LOL!

Just like collectibles at a consignment shop!, so is the dynamics of this herp hobby.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

....I lost the train of thought for this whole thread...LOL

,,......yea...I know a guy that keeps locality black rats, eastern kings and some other common stuff....???....a guy that had all the cool new stuff $$$$$$....now has rats and common kings ....kinda funny...do what HE likes.....I like alot...but they just don't sell.....

...example...brooks'......gawd.....they just set on the table....ALL day long....(friends bred them , good ones too)....
...then they'd sell them all to wholesaler....cheap.....

....not much selling really well right now...except what I am looking for on classifieds...(I won't say) , cannot find any I want......aaaagh..........
-----
.

...(______________________)

some people want them all...
but cage space is limited...so instead of a good ole' yellow...they might get a good ole' amel yellow......cage space is used for the one worth the most cash for babies...."common" NA Rats and all were bred and sold well....now they sell for alot less...lots of stuff sells for alot less....so collections are constantly upgraded to new and improved morphs and all...
yes some people keep what they like no matter what the value....
but when it gets into the hundreds of snakes it just is more cost effective to like the better priced stuff....

I get what I like...but I always like to have a good bottom line...I don't need to make alot of money, but it does have to pay for itself and then some.....corns are not paying for themselves right now at all almost...yellow rats would be in the same range....I can't get rid of some stuff ,and the price doesn't matter, they just don't get attention.....

.....cage space ...here...I like balls...why?...money?...not really anymore....but compare also....I have a box with a yellow rat in it and a box with a ball in it...yellow is pretty and 5 foot and yellow.....balls is pretty and 5 foot and yellow and other colors too...both nice to look at....once a week the rat eats 3 mice....once a week the ball eats 3 bigger mice...so far so good...all the same....the ball defecates once a month....the ratsnake defecates once a day....LOL.......I would keep the ball.......

my thoughts....just a few.....

(and I can't find some stuff in the classifieds and usually don't have time to roam the shows for stuff I want....and some should be common things)...!!!
.
.
.
-----
.

...(______________________)

"some people want them all...
but cage space is limited...so instead of a good ole' yellow...they might get a good ole' amel yellow......cage space is used for the one worth the most cash for babies...."common" NA Rats and all were bred and sold well....now they sell for alot less...lots of stuff sells for alot less....so collections are constantly upgraded to new and improved morphs and all...
yes some people keep what they like no matter what the value....
but when it gets into the hundreds of snakes it just is more cost effective to like the better priced stuff....

I get what I like...but I always like to have a good bottom line...I don't need to make alot of money, but it does have to pay for itself and then some.....corns are not paying for themselves right now at all almost...yellow rats would be in the same range....I can't get rid of some stuff ,and the price doesn't matter, they just don't get attention.....

.....cage space ...here...I like balls...why?...money?...not really anymore....but compare also....I have a box with a yellow rat in it and a box with a ball in it...yellow is pretty and 5 foot and yellow.....balls is pretty and 5 foot and yellow and other colors too...both nice to look at....once a week the rat eats 3 mice....once a week the ball eats 3 bigger mice...so far so good...all the same....the ball defecates once a month....the ratsnake defecates once a day....LOL.......I would keep the ball.......

my thoughts....just a few....."

MONEY>>>MONEY>>>MONEY...

.........money money money.......

.....ok........I won't do this for money...then I will have like let's say....4 snakes and feed them very well...I will have to pay for the food and all out of "household" money, so let's say 4 snakes.....now...I will get really bored with these 4 snakes...let's say 4 different species and 4 different morphs to boot.....so about three times a year I will go to a show and trade them for a new species or morph....usually not caring what I get, just so it's different than I have or had for a few years...and preferably the same priced critter....now three times year I am getting all new snakes...NO quarentine....no time to really get to know the animal, to learn what it all about...but hey...it's pretty....and trade trade trade all the time and never know what I want or what I will be getting...the whole time killing a few each time/year....etc etc etc...on and on....
DO you know how many idiots do this exact thing...?...they come to shows each time and run around trading and selling and stealing also...just to have a new reptile...blah....

...I trade and sell and get new stuff each year...but I also have stuff here for decades?.....I stick with mostly the stuff I know and hopefully the stuff that sells.....usually , nothing really sells as well as we would like.....and yes...they have to pay for themselves.....why not?.....I get new stuff all the time...some do well, some I get rid of before I kill the snakes (usually due to high humidity they cannot take)...

........I am wandering...thoughts...anyways.....I gotta go...pack for a show...maybe I'll give them all away...stop by the table....!!!

.
.
.
-----
.

...(______________________)

I just keep the reptiles I do because I like them, hopefully they can pay for their food and enclosures...

>>Exactly!,....same thing with Yellow Ratsnakes where I live on the east coast of central Florida, there is ZERO influence from ANY other ratsnakes whatsoever. I have seen some real smokers from this area in the past that are very clean and bright yellow.
>>
>> Same exact thing would go for those Blacks way up there in NJ in the northeast corner of the country as you mentioned, nothing else around there at ALL to water down the ssp.
>>
>> You've probably seen this one several times before, but he is just an awesome, beautiful classic example of a Yellow, I figured you wouldn't mind seeing him once again..LOL!
>>
>>
>> take care!, ~Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I never tire of seeing that yellow ratsnake Doug. If I ever have one in my collection, it's got to look simular to that one, LOL
Not much appreciation for NA rats, but like you said, I keep what I love, not what others like. Normal speckled kings, jet black rats, white oak grey rats, all great snakes. Garter snakes are very underrated. Who needs a morph when you have a t.similis that's cotton candy blue. Steve

Thanks Steve!,....glad you like that yellow too.

right you are, buddy!,..and THOSE TWO sweet specimens you posted are beautiful representatives of BOTH!..wow!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Why do people need morphs when snakes look like that naturally?

Nate