Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My father has a tendency to purchase animals that he refuses to do research on, and when they get sick (they ALWAYS do...) he relies on me to find the answer. The problem is that i haven't been to his house in 3 years.
SO

Heres the story:

Years ago my little brother had a bearded dragon. Despite me telling them they needed a UVB bulb, they never got one and it died a painful MBD death.

A year and a half ago, they purchased a new one...despite my best efforts to dissuade them.

I just got an email from my dad with a picture of the bearded. She has what looks like an edeama on her lower eyelid, and its getting bigger. She apparently is growing another on her other eye and it is getting difficult for her to open them....They waited until now to tell me this.

So here are the facts that i got from my father:
1) my little brother has a w/c painted turtle....i told him that cross contamination is VERY easy to do between w/c and c/b animals. ALso i informed him that not washing hands between tanks...an aquatic turtle and a desert lizard spells all bad.

2) She is being kept on Alfalfa pellets. Knowing them, she is not kept clean, and i am sure mold has grown in there...added to the fact that loose crickets can ingest alfalfa...also bad. Fungal infection maybe?

3) she is being supplemented with reptical w/ D3 and a multivite 3x a week...way too much for an adult. AND she's not getting veggies....mostly superworms and freeze dried crix..((shudder))

4) her UVB strip hasn't been changed in a year and a half.

This is all really quite bad...and i told him this, despite my telling them once before NOT to get a bearded. When they did, i made them get the correct tank and set up (uv, cage carpet, etc)...BUT...some people dont listen.
and then i get the call.

I let him know that if he doesnt get her to a vet SOON that she is going to die..the infection (or parasite??) is in her eyelids....too close to the brain...

Thats all the information i have. Any ideas that anyone else has would be appreciated....i hate to see them kill another bearded. Some people never ever learn....
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, Fae, Azra
1.1.5 crested geckos- Jubeh and Inari, Avalon, Vajra, Pheonix, and 2 hatchlings
1.1.1 gargoyle geckos- Acacia,Osiris, and Enoki
0.0.1 flying gecko- Malarchy
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
0.1 albino kenyan sand boa- Akasha
1.0 xanthic kenyan sand boa- Ashoka
1.1 whites tree frogs- Sifaka and Eikon
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1.2 Senegal chameleons- Ambaji, The Chosen One, and Vertigo
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.2 pacific parrolets- Mishka and Kya
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

If the owners of the dragon are not willing to do anything to correct their many husbandry issues, then its pointless for us to list all the things that need to be changed (which seems to be about everything).

Since the owners continual to dismiss advice or even research the proper care of their pets, I would call the SPCA on them. Sure they will get a fine but they will probably be prevented from owning another pet ever again. (though it will depend on the animal cruelity acts in your area and whether they consider reptiles capable of suffering etc.)

If they surrender the dragon to you, then first thing I would do is book a vet appointment. Then set up the tank the right way so he has a proper setup to recover from the infected eyes after being treated by a vet.
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PHLdyPayne

There's a touchy subject...
they are my family.
....
If i had the space i would take her but i also know that i myself am overloaded and have no proper time for her. This is just a bad situation that i was surprised hadnt happened yet.
Im so frustrated.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, Fae, Azra
1.1.5 crested geckos- Jubeh and Inari, Avalon, Vajra, Pheonix, and 2 hatchlings
1.1.1 gargoyle geckos- Acacia,Osiris, and Enoki
0.0.1 flying gecko- Malarchy
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
0.1 albino kenyan sand boa- Akasha
1.0 xanthic kenyan sand boa- Ashoka
1.1 whites tree frogs- Sifaka and Eikon
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1.2 Senegal chameleons- Ambaji, The Chosen One, and Vertigo
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.2 pacific parrolets- Mishka and Kya
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

What would really help is a close up photo of the dragon and their enclosure.

Hello,
Temps are the most important aspect of a bearded dragons husbandry. Encourage them to atleast get those up to snub for now. That will help the dragon fight w.e ailments it is struggling with in the mean time.

ya...i already told them to up teh basking temps to around 100 or a bit more, to simulate a fever. I will try to get a pic up of her eye. I just hope he is going to take her to a vet. She really needs bloodwork done.
-----
"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, Fae, Azra
1.1.5 crested geckos- Jubeh and Inari, Avalon, Vajra, Pheonix, and 2 hatchlings
1.1.1 gargoyle geckos- Acacia,Osiris, and Enoki
0.0.1 flying gecko- Malarchy
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
0.1 albino kenyan sand boa- Akasha
1.0 xanthic kenyan sand boa- Ashoka
1.1 whites tree frogs- Sifaka and Eikon
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1.2 Senegal chameleons- Ambaji, The Chosen One, and Vertigo
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.2 pacific parrolets- Mishka and Kya
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

Beardeds are not humans, you are not simulating a "fever" you need to provide appropriate temps, period.

Basking temps, surface temps, should reach 120-130F.

100F is downright chilly, and doesn't allow the lizard to even get the metabolism running, much less running well.

Temps are your main problem, but they are fairly easy to address.

Best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Bearded Dragons should have a basking spot temp. of approx. 105 degrees. Significantly higher or lower is detrimental.

Dragons will make use of 120-130 just as they can make use of 105. It's not too hot for them, trust me. I have several healthy dragons that I see basking at 120-130 degrees everyday.(surface temp measured w/ temp gun)

My observation is they bask at higher temps for shorter periods of time than opposed to 100-105. Just as they do in nature, where 130 degree basking temps certainly exist.

105 degree basking spots exist in nature too, and I'm sure that dragons use them. My guess on warm days in Australia just the ground itself heats up well into the 100 degree range. I've shot 105 degree temps on the grass in my own backyard here in IL. Once you move up from the ground things start to heat up. That's where you will find surface temperatures of 120-130 and even much higher than that.

You don't need that hot of a basking area. Dragons are still around that I raised/bred at 8-10 years old, and guess what???? With hot basking spots of 110-115(and I have always suggested that I keep mine on the warmer side). How many dragons are around, or have been bred and kept on 130 degree basking temps, and for how long? Show me some that have outlived these other dragons that thrived, and I will try it. Otherwise, I'll stick with what I know works.

I agree. And I have tried it. The dragons just don't use it (except maybe for a very short while in the am until they figure out it is too hot for them) and it raises the ambient too high and drops the humidity. Dragons cannot sense temperature with their skin, that is why they can be burned with defective hot rocks. You could make the basking spot 180 and the dragon would still go there until his core temp. reaches the desired level. But, he will be seriously burned. Many hot rock owners have learned this over the years.

I really doubt you've tried higher basking temps because you always seem defer to them raising the ambient temp and decreasing humidity. They simply don't. Raise the surface of the basking site to the bulb. I have PAR38 50-watt halogen floods about 6-8 inches from the surface of the basking site to achieve 120-130(surface) and the ambient warm side temperature rarely gets above 85 degrees. Thats the honest truth. Only on the hottest days in summer does the ambient reach 90 degrees.

To Chris, my point is that dragons do use 130, just as they use 105, 110 and 115. They cannot regulate their body temps without heat, so anything above 90 degrees is useful. 130 degree surface temp is not all that hot. How many captive dragons really make it past 8 years old anyway?

I have 2 of chris's dragons pushing those ages right about now. My Big Daddy Foster, and Myah my female red.. Both have been kept very similar to how Chris kept dragons I do believe. After all he pretty much got me into dragons all those years ago.

What gets SO old is this pattern of "dying bearded" threads, with either unknown temps or substandard temps. It isn't because of poor intentioned keepers, it is just a reflection of the incredibly poor resources in Bearded books and caresheets, and general ignorance (lack of knowledge not dumdum-ness) of proper husbandry and temps.

Chris, your temps of 115F (surface temp of the basking spot at the hottest point) are MUCH more similar to 130F, at least in the same ballpark, than they are to temps of 100 or 105F. Beardeds can get the job done, typically, working with the 115F. They can get it done even better at 130F though. Really, truly, it is not that hot. Not for a surface temp of the only basking spot.

But 115F is miles ahead of 100 or 105, and in these circumstances with Beardeds or lizards that are already compromised, 105 is just not going to cut it. 100 is definitely not, and 95 or "it seems hot" is a death warrant.

These poor temps are what put the lizard in jeopardy in the first place.

As for my post-stalker BDlvr, KMartin is right, you can set up a hatchling cage with 83-130F temp gradient with little problem, it just takes a bit of knowledge and guidance. BDlvr can't sent up HIS cages that way, perhaps, but it can be done. I can do it in a 10 gallon tank.

Use an elevated basking spot- with a Retes Stack, effectively doubling the usable square footage of the cage, and providing basking temps of- get this 130F, 125, 120, 115, 110, 95, 85 all in the same basking stack. Choices, lots of choices, and they will use them all.

Limit evaporative heat loss by limiting the venting on the top/cover. And use a small wattage (50 watt or less) bulb for the basking stack. A regular lamp bulb in 10 and 20 gallon tanks, halogen flood bulbs in larger cages.

This type of lizard setup has been used for more than a decade now, just not widely in Beardeds, Bearded keepers are just now getting hip to it. But it works fantastically, and creates terrifically healthy animals, thriving, growing and breeding like they are meant to.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

The problem is you guys are inexperienced and really don't know or understand what is best for the animals. Robyn, I asked you once to post a picture of one of your "so called" advanced setups. And as I remember you called me a "troll" because you were too embarassed to post one or possibly they don't exist at all. Why don't you put your momey where your mouth is. My pictures show my testing and experience. It only takes me seconds to raise the basking temps. in my enclosures, I just change the termostat settings. What you guys can't comprehend is that the ambient temp. above a 130 dregree basking spot is significantly higher than the ambient temp. above a 105 degree temp. and that they call it "relative" humidity because as temps. increase humidity decreases. Outside there is much more air circulation so higher basking spots are not as much of an issue. But again you guys don't have outdoor enclosures like I do, so you have no idea how they actually act when high basking temps. are present in nature. The answer to the question of how many dragons live past 8 is pretty much all of them under my conditions. Your conditions are also used to make beef jerky so I can understand your noted shorter life spans.

Beardeds are not like monitors, and I would never suggest for babies(especially multiples) to get housed with a retes stack type setup. Baby dragons thrive when its kept simple. Limited choices. Bright, warm, and simple! Eat, poop, eat sleep. Get them going under these conditions and you are building the foundation for a dragon that wants to eat, wants to bask, and generally speaking looks better.

Robyn, I can appreciate your willingness to try to educate and help. Having said that I don't think your direction, is the right direction for raising/keeping dragons. I think it may work for adults under the right circumstances, but anything else I don't see any reason or use for it.

Im willing to put my money where my mouth is. My next clutch of babies, Im willing to make two setups, place 3 dragons in each setup and observe. One setup will be like you want, with a 130 hotspot and a retes type stack, and the other my setup, and we can see which dragons do better.

No uvb, retes stack, 130 basking at top of stack....and do you want dirt for substrate also???

Actually thinking about it, im a little worried about even trying it, seems like a death sentence.

Hey Chris,

I keep dragons like Robyn mentions. I also breed. I don't keep babies like you mentioned your going to try.

For babies, I use basking temps up to 115. The reason being is they are very small (little mass) and it doesn't take long for them to heat up at 115. When the baby hits the sub-adult stage, I increase the temps (when its mass increases).

I don't use dirt for babies for one reason. Dirt makes the dragons look dirty, and with selling babies, price reflects color. I use sand. Its around 4 inches deep and kept moist. I use sterlite containers with the lid kept on. I cut a hole for the heat light. Theres so much humidity that condensation builds on the walls and ceiling. The babies will lick the droplets off the walls from time to time. Baby dragons dehydrate faster than the adults. The humidity means for better hydration and perfect sheds, with less bathing.

I don't use any hides for the babies either. Only because the crickets hide in them.

I've done this with over a thousand babies. I've also done it the "traditional" way with over a thousand babies. So I'm experienced with both husbandry practices.

Tim

Hey Tim, I would really like to see pictures of your baby setup. It sounds interesting, I have a few concerns, but it does sound interesting and Id love to see a pic if you had one.

I was suggesting me trying the 130 temp and the retes stack because these are the suggestions Robyn made for hatchlings.

He suggests dirt substrate, 130 basking, retes stack, 10 gallon tank, and im pretty sure no uvb? I can do that as described, and do a side by side comparison, mine vs. his and see which dragons do better, if any. I can take measurements, weights and lengths, pictures, videos....etc.

Now if Robyn wants to do the same and do a side by side comparison with his baby dragons, my setup vs his, it would be even more interesting.

Robyn, please don't think im joking, or making fun, Im serious about the comparison. Btw, I use a tempgun(actual tempgun from you guys), and I love shipyourreptiles.com LOL. Having said that, I think I would win this.

Wager?

BDlvr, I don't have any Bearded setup pics because we haven't raised Beardeds in years.

Chris, your challenge is too intriguing to pass up : )

Sure, I will personally setup a group of Bearded babies in a 20 gallon tank, as described- basking stacks, soil, no uvb, and raise them up for a year. I will increase cage size as necessary for the size of the lizard. Ending most likely in a 4 ft trough, with my basic lizard theory setup. That is how we keep monitors, Uros, even tortoises.

Sounds like fun!

I am at the Chicago reptile show this weekend, and I am traveling next weekend, but after that, we'll split a clutch of Chris Allen babies, and start a new adventure, with regular updates and comparisons with the "Chris" clutch.

Really, this sounds like a blast, I am really looking forward to it!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

for this sort of thing to work, get accurate weights of all the babies at setup and measure their weights regularly. Record length snout to tail tip etc and record all the data. (spreadsheet programs are great for this). Keep track of how much each dragon eats, sheds, poops, how often supplements are used (I am going to assume calcium with D3 is going to be used since no UVB light is going to be provided.)

Photo records will be good too, with something in the picture (ie: a ruler) to show size differences.

You two may have thought of doing this already but I wanted to mention it just in case. I think it will produce a more realistic result if we know what is being fed, and the growth rates etc. What would be a great addition is get a bone density test (x-ray?) once a month from a vet to see if there is any change...if it drops or stays constant etc between the UVB provided dragons and the D3 only dragons.
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PHLdyPayne

unfortunately knowing them, she is sitting at a constant 85....it wouldnt surprise me. ..i would like to think that she has hotter temps, but it is not likely. That is probably a good point. I havent asked lately how she is doing. I kind of dont want to know. I have my own animals to worry about.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, Fae, Azra
1.1.5 crested geckos- Jubeh and Inari, Avalon, Vajra, Pheonix, and 2 hatchlings
1.1.1 gargoyle geckos- Acacia,Osiris, and Enoki
0.0.1 flying gecko- Malarchy
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
0.1 albino kenyan sand boa- Akasha
1.0 xanthic kenyan sand boa- Ashoka
1.1 whites tree frogs- Sifaka and Eikon
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1.2 Senegal chameleons- Ambaji, The Chosen One, and Vertigo
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.2 pacific parrolets- Mishka and Kya
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

My money is on Chris . Should we start taking bets? I have kept many monitor species over the years and i would NEVER keep my beardies like i do a monitor. It sound like a death threat!!!

To chris i can see how you would be hesitant to even put a Beardie through this?? But i look forward to seeing the data do all the speaking.