Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone here know of any Blondes that have been found West of the Big Hill and are either still in captivity or still represented by locality offspring in captivity?

Sorry to use this forum for a suboc question, but I know that there are many more people capable of answering this question here than elsewhere! (Besides, I've seen more pictures of wild Blondes here than I have on the ratsnake forum.)

Thanks for any responses!

Dusty Rhoads

I found one on the far west side of the big hill years ago, it was a kinked up hatchling and it did not live long.

But I suppose this is not much help..?
A picture Troy took of it.

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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Do you ever wonder if something like that was released there? How many "kinked up hatchlings" do you find in the wild? And how many Blonds do you find west of Fresno Creek? Prior to 1990, zero! I know some have been collected near and I think even west of the Big Hill in recent years and I know populations expand as long as the habitat will allow it but I also know that sometimes humans help things along. We all know that (at least for alterna,to satisfy this forum, alterna alterna alterna) from reading this forum. Blonds, for years where restricted to the Boquillas limestone which made sense because they would blend with their surroundings. But for them to move to the red or dark igneous rock of the Big Hill area really doesn't make since.

>>Do you ever wonder if something like that was released there? How many "kinked up hatchlings" do you find in the wild? And how many Blonds do you find west of Fresno Creek? Prior to 1990, zero!

As for the first question, not really, for my part. I'm sure that they naturally disperse to close-by locales, and of course, you'd find fewer there if the phenotype was less fit for the environment, but you'd still find them on the fringe.

i.e. If the mutation is selected against west of their yellow limestone habitat, then that would explain seeing fewer. And, of course, no one was legally hunting TPRSs from 1977 until 1987. That could explain why people weren't seeing them there until 1990 with any regularity.

The remarkable thing is that it appears to be a recessive morph that is selected for and at least as equally fit as normals in that area.

This could just as easily apply to Alterna.
First, you didn't answer my question. How many kinked up hatchlings do you see in the wild?

As for the first question, not really, for my part. I'm sure that they naturally disperse to close-by locales, and of course, you'd find fewer there if the phenotype was less fit for the environment, but you'd still find them on the fringe.

"to close-by locales" Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the first one west of Fresno will be about 7 to 10 miles and the next one 12 or so and the next one would be about 17 miles. If they started to drift naturally outside their range, I would think they would turn up closer and more often near that fringe.

i.e. If the mutation is selected against west of their yellow limestone habitat, then that would explain seeing fewer. And, of course, no one was legally hunting TPRSs from 1977 until 1987. That could explain why people weren't seeing them there until 1990 with any regularity.

I saw a heck of a lot more people "not" hunting from 77 to 87 than I see "not" hunting there now. If they crossed the road back then, there would have been a lot more people there to "not" see them.

The remarkable thing is that it appears to be a recessive morph that is selected for and at least as equally fit as normals in that area.

I have collected 2 gravid female blonds, both laid and produced 100% blond babies. As you know, that means they bred to a blond male. The chances of that are astronomical, so is that a sign of natural selective breeding for a particular color morph?
Hey Dusty, as for your Question, email me and I will answer it.
Later
Rick

>>>>First, you didn't answer my question. How many kinked up hatchlings do you see in the wild?

No idea.

>>"to close-by locales" Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the first one west of Fresno will be about 7 to 10 miles and the next one 12 or so and the next one would be about 17 miles. If they started to drift naturally outside their range, I would think they would turn up closer and more often near that fringe.

>>I saw a heck of a lot more people "not" hunting from 77 to 87 than I see "not" hunting there now. If they crossed the road back then, there would have been a lot more people there to "not" see them.

Not sure I follow your logic. Would anyone "not" hunting have reported them? LOL

But completely besides that possibility, we can't forget that there is such a thing as an allele going to fixation in a population. In other words, perhaps there are more Blondes now than there were then. No evolution would mean that the allele frequency would stay exactly the same throughout every succeeding generation of animals.

>>I have collected 2 gravid female blonds, both laid and produced 100% blond babies. As you know, that means they bred to a blond male.

Yeah, or a Het (thought maybe not as likely as what you suggest).

The chances of that are astronomical, so is that a sign of natural selective breeding for a particular color morph?

Yeah, good point. But for me to answer would be stealing some of my thunder for my TPRS talk this weekend. LOL I'll definitely post my ideas on this soon, if anyone's still keen to talk about them. Goodness knows I'll flap my yap if I have an ear to listen. haha

>>Hey Dusty, as for your Question, email me and I will answer it.

Cool. Thank you, Rick.

Dusty
Suboc.com

First, you didn't answer my question. How many kinked up hatchlings do you see in the wild?

First, I would say as a rule very few hatchlings are seen in the wild to begin with, and in captivity 100% of them are seen. This first fact will skew any data right off the bat. And those that are more profoundly deformed will likely not make it very far away from the egg if they even get out at all. I have no reason at all to suspect that somebody went out and released a kinked up snake, most people I know would either euthanize it or simply raise it if it was healthy enough to eat and move in a plastic box. I believe that my good luck in finding it was only surpassed by my bad luck in that the animal had kinks that could be felt (they were not readily visible).

I believe it does happen in the wild, and I have seen it before, I had a milk snake that was very visibly kinked up that was a wc adult and she even produced eggs. And I have seen photos of wc animals with kinks, mostly in the tail.

I have no doubt that there is most likely a higher occurrence of deformity in captive animals due to the diet that is likely marginal compared to the variety they will eat in nature (that they are adapted to eat to begin with) and also the assorted methods of incubation providing assorted results for assorted people.

But to say that this would never happen in the wild is a stretch.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Thanks, Lance. Yeah, I have a picture of that one in TCS. Too bad it didn't survive...very unique color.

Dusty