Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First, I have a question about Calcium supplementation for my Sulcata and my two Leopards. I am pretty sure I had read before that it is safe to give tortoises "human" Calcium. I found calcium capsules from Whole Foods. They are in a vegetarian capsule, that when seperated, contains powdered Calcium and Magnesium. That is all. Is it safe to use this powder???

Second, I am a little concerned about my Sulcata's growth rate. I have not been able to find an graphs on how much they should gain, but he is two years old and approximately 470 grams. He is gaining, but it seems like only 10 or so grams a month. Does this sound normal??? And before anyone asks, I do feed him . A pet store owner asked me if I was and trust me, the little guy is well fed. He just doesn't seem to be gaining a lot.

Thanks in advance!!!

Sulcatas will go through growth spurts. Not all sulcats grow the same rate it varys from tort. to tort.. Sex is also a factor i have noticed my females do not grow as rapid as the males do. She could be a female. I know you said you feed her alot and i do not doubt you but a way i have gotten sulcatas weight up is to give them all day access to graze on grass. I also try to feed some alfalfa greens in with there food (not the stems until there bigger). i had one 5 year femle go from 7lbs. to 10 lbs. this summer in a few weeks and i think what triggered her spurt was giving her more land to graze on. She actually had such a spurt that the outer layer of the shell around the bone split in several places(the fingernail like part) but thats just how she grew. Sorry i dont know much about your calcium question.

In my personal opinion, you are better off simply using Rep-cal than the supplement you mentioned. Rep-cal is an organic calcium based compound, produced by grinding oyster shells into a fine powder. I believe it is far easier for the tortoises to absorb and utilize the calcium in this form than from a sterile powder of pure calcium. This does not even address the question of the magnesium you mentioned. I have no idea what a tortoise's magnesium requirements may be (if any), but if not the same as what a human needs, the ratio of the two will be skewed for the tortoise in all likelihood. Oyster shells being a bonelike material are far more likely to have the primary and trace elements necessary for tortoise shell growth (and in the proper ratios to form healthy bone) than a powder of pure calcium or the calcium and magnesium powders if you used both of them from those capsules (I wasn't sure if you intended to use one or both of the powders in the capsules from your post).

I have found that a cheap source of calcium powder is at a brewers supply store (wine / beer, etc) You can buy it very inexpensively, like $5~6 for 5 pounds.

Calcium is a mineral; ergo calcium is calcium. There is no such thing as a type of calcium that is "safe for human consumption" because it's all safe.

What you do have to watch out for are human supplements like Centrum, etc. All the books mention that you can use such products, but they typically contain vitamin A and D, which can cause problems if you keep your animals outside in the sun.

>>I have found that a cheap source of calcium powder is at a brewers supply store (wine / beer, etc) You can buy it very inexpensively, like $5~6 for 5 pounds.
>>
>>Calcium is a mineral; ergo calcium is calcium. There is no such thing as a type of calcium that is "safe for human consumption" because it's all safe.
>>

I agree with the above about brewer's supply calcium.

I do think there are differences in the types of calcium you supply your tortoise. The article linked below discusses different sources of calcium and their safety and effectiveness.

Tortoise Trust article on calcium

Yes, I agree there are thousands of variations of calcuim supplements, each with it's own recipe of additional ingredients.

Also, there are a variety of different resources from which calcium can be found, but in the end, pure, unrefined calcium carbonate (CaCO3) = calcium carbonate. There can be no difference. If you alter it's chemical makeup, it is no longer calcium carbonate, it's something else.

Now how you access calcium is a different story, via cuttlebone, egg shells, supplements, etc, but at that point you are no longer talking about pure calcium carbonate. Calcium may be IN it, and people may refer to it as calcium, but it is really something else.

I would just like to point out one thing regarding the previous post. Pure calcium is a single element, Ca (only). CaCO3 is three elements: calcium, carbon, and oxygen which are combined in the given ratio to form the compound CaCO3, or calcium carbonate. Hence, if you are feeding calcium carbonate, I believe it needs to be broken down in the gut to release the element calcium for absorption as I don't think the entire compound may be absorbed through the gut intact.

If there are any nutritionists out there, let's hear from you on this question.....

Sources of Calcium for my heard include cuttle bone, egg shells, both avian and reptilian, and the primary source, Ground Oyster Shell. It is also called oyster flour, and is widely used in the poultry industry and also by gardeners. It is very cheap, about $8.00 or so for a 50lb. bag, it looks like the bags concrete is sold in. I suspect this is what the Rep-Cal people buy and refine and repackage and mark-up... Folks occassionally caution me about the potential of heavy metals, but so far lack data to show it is an issue. The source I use "Pacific Pearl" is said to get shells from aqua-culture projects producing oysters for human consumption, so I would assume they are reasonably "clean" source. If you want it, order it from your local Feed & Grain store, that sells equestrian/poultry/ garden supplies. My herd eats a lot of it, and they shells look great, hard and smooth like wild ones. Good luck, Vic H.

Good points, Vic. I will also add that the most successful breeder of Egyptian Tortoises that I know used crushed oyster shells as a substrate for his Egyptian Tortoises when he lived in CT. It absorbed moisture from the air to keep the humidity down, and it didn't hurt them if they ate it, accidentally or purposely. He moved to FL a couple years ago, and I would assume he still uses it, but would have to ask him to be sure.

I use the same and it seems to work just fine.

N/P

great info, but no one has mentioned quantities-
d3 is a poison in the wrong amounts. I have a redfoot who is all eagerness to consume an entire cuttlebone in one sitting. He is an adult, and my vet said he didn't need more than a sprinkling of calcium once a week. What about my yearlings? They can eat a cuttlebone (about a half one) over the course of three days. Does that mean they need it, or am I giving them too much? de Vosjoli says excessive calcium can cause pyramiding. the exact thing I'm trying to avoid!
I have searched chelonia.org, but no mention of quantities in specifics is given, except for adults.
Are natural sources of calcium (cuttlebones, eggshells) better for absorbtion? Safer for the body to not absorb incorrect amts of the wrong elements?

Regarding quantity of Ca. Good and tough Questions. I think you can overdo it with too much finely powdered Ca on food, where the tortoise really does not have a choice. I am an advocate of giving them a choice, and my outdoor herd is offered cuttle bone and egg shells free choice, and they do indeed eat a lot of both. I spinkle oyster shell on food sporadically, when I think of it, perhaps once or twice a week? I also feed a lot of cactus, said to be a good Ca source. I am unaware of any problems, and the shells look great, no pyramiding, eggs are chalky white... My herd is outside, and that makes it simpler I think. As usual, "moderation in all things applies"...but I don't think any harm will come to them if they select and eat it, as opposed to ingesting it incidental to food consumption. I also think more tortoises suffer from deficiency than excess, but I am speculating here. Vic H.

I have screwed it up before, I had a standings gecko for about ten years, and in the end, he died of vitamin poisoning. Its reall easy for me to overdo it in an effort to do it right. I just read a post from a lady who has had her redfoot for five years, it is perfectly smooth, and she gives what she says is "almost no supplementation" but deals with only native foods, and natural sunshine.
I started thinking about this, and thought, is powder once a week almost nothing to her? Whereas I might think powder once a week is quite a descent amount, and three times a aweek is a lot?
I find everyone, even the experts, are not giving actual measurable quantities. My "not much" may be someone elses "whole lot" and either could be too much or not enought from the tortoises position.

How do you know?

I had a leopard gecko... 29 years. It ws obtained as an adult. It was fed crickets dusted with Centrum from day one.

>>I have screwed it up before, I had a standings gecko for about ten years, and in the end, he died of vitamin poisoning. Its reall easy for me to overdo it in an effort to do it right. I just read a post from a lady who has had her redfoot for five years, it is perfectly smooth, and she gives what she says is "almost no supplementation" but deals with only native foods, and natural sunshine.
>>I started thinking about this, and thought, is powder once a week almost nothing to her? Whereas I might think powder once a week is quite a descent amount, and three times a aweek is a lot?
>>I find everyone, even the experts, are not giving actual measurable quantities. My "not much" may be someone elses "whole lot" and either could be too much or not enought from the tortoises position.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'm pretty confident in saying that Phillipe did not say that too much D3 caused pyramiding.

>>great info, but no one has mentioned quantities-
>>d3 is a poison in the wrong amounts. I have a redfoot who is all eagerness to consume an entire cuttlebone in one sitting. He is an adult, and my vet said he didn't need more than a sprinkling of calcium once a week. What about my yearlings? They can eat a cuttlebone (about a half one) over the course of three days. Does that mean they need it, or am I giving them too much? de Vosjoli says excessive calcium can cause pyramiding. the exact thing I'm trying to avoid!
>>I have searched chelonia.org, but no mention of quantities in specifics is given, except for adults.
>>Are natural sources of calcium (cuttlebones, eggshells) better for absorbtion? Safer for the body to not absorb incorrect amts of the wrong elements?
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

No, but he did say too much calcium can cause pyramiding.
He seemed to think temperature was far more the culprit in most pyramiding situations.
And my vet did say d3 was toxic in the wrong quantities, as is vit A.
whats a worry wart to do?

I couldn't believe reading this.

There is a concern with calcium sources.

As to Centrum... I've been using it for over 30 years on reptiles without a problem. It it one of the best supplements available for reptiles.

>>I have found that a cheap source of calcium powder is at a brewers supply store (wine / beer, etc) You can buy it very inexpensively, like $5~6 for 5 pounds.
>>
>>Calcium is a mineral; ergo calcium is calcium. There is no such thing as a type of calcium that is "safe for human consumption" because it's all safe.
>>
>>What you do have to watch out for are human supplements like Centrum, etc. All the books mention that you can use such products, but they typically contain vitamin A and D, which can cause problems if you keep your animals outside in the sun.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care