Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is an CB 08' male from a Montgomery County, MD male and a Lancaster, PA female.

Wow. Looks like the milks of my youth or at least how I remember them.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WOW. Sweet looking snake. I live and find many milks in Montgomery County Maryland but have yet to find one of those!!

Hey, do you have any photos of the parents you could post?

That is a very nice looking eastern!

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Joe

Pretty good looking LTT you have there yourself Joe!

Joe, tongue in cheek, rub a little of that magic on the rest of us! I dont think you would believe me or other people that say they just arent that easy to feed....jesus, that's embarrassing,LMAO.

>>Joe, tongue in cheek, rub a little of that magic on the rest of us! I dont think you would believe me or other people that say they just arent that easy to feed....jesus, that's embarrassing,LMAO.

Why is it so embarrassing??? Tongue in cheek, Maybe I'm just a better keeper than your giving me credit for. To quote the snake whisperer I just "give them choices". It's worked so far (or maybe it's just good luck, who knows)!

Seriously, I have been very lucky with them. I just wish they would eat year round like my other snakes.
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Joe

>> "To quote the snake whisperer I just "give them choices".

** TOO FUNNY!..HAHAHA!!,...We BOTH know exactly who THAT is..LOL!

Yeah, the self proclaimed so-called "pioneer" of all getula!! over there..hehehehhehe!!

I've had plenty of shall we say "friendly" conversation with that guy in the past.

If I were to tell that dude that the sun would rise in the morning,...he would disagree, and babble on forever about why it probably wouldn't..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Joe, your FIRST snake is the albino eastern and he is doin PISSA! Now you get into it and get eastern after eastern to eat??? I say this because I know ya, but its really not this easy. I may have started as a bit of a mentor but one of the things that defines us as snake guys, our resolve, is dealing with our setbacks. You have had none of that! The learning process is usually two steps forward, one step back....its like the law,lol. I am proud to see you succeed but its starting to look like I gotta ask you questions. I can be a wiseass loudmouth and make fun of my momma....but I am not above anything if it comes to learning something new. Especially if I can keep these finicky bastards on the straight and narrow. KUDOS JOE, you have come a long way grasshopper!

>>Joe, your FIRST snake is the albino eastern and he is doin PISSA! Now you get into it and get eastern after eastern to eat??? I say this because I know ya, but its really not this easy. I may have started as a bit of a mentor but one of the things that defines us as snake guys, our resolve, is dealing with our setbacks. You have had none of that! The learning process is usually two steps forward, one step back....its like the law,lol. I am proud to see you succeed but its starting to look like I gotta ask you questions. I can be a wiseass loudmouth and make fun of my momma....but I am not above anything if it comes to learning something new. Especially if I can keep these finicky bastards on the straight and narrow. KUDOS JOE, you have come a long way grasshopper!

Jeff, I'd like to steal a quote from Doug from your conversation in another topic above, "You seem to make it sound like I just joined the snake game a couple years ago. I've seen more than one or two snakes in my day Jeff."

While I'm not as experienced as many here, I have had a fascination with field herping since the 70s, and have been involved with keeping snakes of one kind or another for almost as long. The albino just happened to be the first L.t.t. that I ever kept in captivity. Obviuosly it led to me becoming more interested in triangulum, and has led to me keeping a few other ssp. that I had previously never kept. I think I understand some of the points you're trying to make, but grasshopper may be taking it a little far, lol.

Yes, when I found the albino you, along with many others approached me. I am always willing to ask questions, listen and learn from others. I very much appreciate advice you and the others here on the forums have given me along my journey.

rtdunham said it best a couple weeks ago:
"1) There are always multiple ways to make things work. I've bred animals where i used one method and a friend used mostly the most-opposite methods, and we both succeeded to our considerable satisfaction. You'll get different answers here to your questions, and those answers may all be good ones. There's no single right answer to most questions.
2) Because one person seldom has the only correct answer (see #1 above!), weigh the ideas you're given here against what makes sense to you. "Common sense" is based on knowledge and insight, so your snake-common sense will change as you read more and try more and observe more. Be willing, as you have been with your questions here, to say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" and you'll do well. Don't believe all of what anyone--myself included--tells you."

And one last quote, which I don't remember exactly where I heard, but think it is one that everyone should follow:
"When you have stopped learning, you have stopped living."
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Joe

Chuck that snake is smokin'.More pics please and history?

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Doug L

Chuck,

that snake is awesome. I've not seen one with such reduced black borders like that one has. Like the others said, I'd love to hear the history and see adults from that line.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

I'll take some pics of the psrents and post them later.The father is a F2 from Montgomery,Co.Md. And,the mother is a F2 from Lancaster,Pa.

I'd be comfortable for now calling that a hypo. Hang onto the line and work it for a few years. Best LTt I've seen aside from the albino.
Jeff

>>I'll take some pics of the psrents and post them later.The father is a F2 from Montgomery,Co.Md. And,the mother is a F2 from Lancaster,Pa.
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If Patrick Henry thought that taxation without representation was bad, he should see it with representation.

>> "I'd be comfortable for now calling that a hypo."

** That's exactly what first came to my mind too. I was wondering why nobody else mentioned that right off the bat.

Very unique animal for sure!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thats an insane Ltt!

Jeff, Any chance of pictures of an Albino Specimen. I've been looking but kind find one anywhere.

Take it easy,
Scott

Joe M. has an AWESOME albino L.t.t. he captured himself!

the lucky schmuck!..LOL!

maybe he will chime in and show it to us again.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Here's a photo of the L.t.t. that the schmuck found.

Oh wait, that's an ugly one that I found today when walking back to my truck after a short hike after work. This one was found out in the open (yes JYohe, I said out in the open) at about 5:30 p.m.

And here's a couple old photos of the amel that was also found out in the open in June of 2007.

I'm also enjoying all the attention that the L.t.t. and other N.A. triangulum have been getting recently. Did anyone else notice the "hypo" eastern that was posted in the classifieds a couple weeks ago. I inquired, but never received a response. That one was very similar to the hypo coastals as opposed to the "reduced black" individual posted by chuckster. Whatever it turns out to be, that is definitely a nice looking L.t.t. that the chuckster posted!
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Joe

Thanks Joe.But,I must say that amel is smokin hot!Great find.

Joe,..I just knew you'd be able to follow the "scent" of this post and respond to it pretty quick!, that's too funny!..LOL!

I see little man is doing very well. It's always cool to see progression pics of the same animal to see how certain things change over time.

And, yes!,...that IS a very unique Eastern "chuckster" posted.

Cool find going to your truck!....and OUT IN THE OPEN!!..LOL!

later, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Joe,

He's looking good. I too enjoy the progression pictures to see how it is changing over time. its starting to look more like the albino pictured in applegates milk snake book that Don Hamper had I think. The big question is, is he big enough to breed next spring????

Dave

That was Don Hamper's albino in Applegate's book, just as you thought.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Dave,

Thanks. Great point about the milk in Applegate's book. When I first got the book I didn't see much of a resemblance, but I hadn't looked at it in a long time. I just pulled it out to compare, and yes it does look very similar now. It's a very difficult animal to photo due to all the bright clean white it has. Someday I'll sit down with the manual and figure out all the settings on my DSLR.

Time will tell, but I'm hoping next spring will be productive!
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Joe

Very nice looking triangulum.
I'm going w/ what Jeff said too. "I'm comfortable calling that a hypo."

Here are a few hypo syspila to compare it w/.

Normal and an obvious hypo.

Same hypo from above.

Anothe hypo syspila. To bad you had to mix localities to get the hypo, but you have one hell of a project there. By the way none of the syspila I posted are locality animals, wish they were, but...... -Dell

Dell, the HYPO reds dont represent the same "type" of gene that is in the HYPO Puebs, Hondos, Coastals, Annulata or any of the rest. We call them "HYPO", but its simply not the same gene. To LOOK for that gene in another mixed locale?? There is no differentiation in head pattern, and I have seen plenty of milks like that(with a little black). I think this is "Just" a NICE normal eastern similar to some of the NICE mole kings or thayeri that LACK BLACK but simply dont represent that same HYPO gene.
I could be wrong, there is PRECEDENT(LMAO), but I would want to see several more pics before I called it HYPO.

Jeff wrote:
"Dell, the HYPO reds dont represent the same "type" of gene that is in the HYPO Puebs, Hondos, Coastals, Annulata or any of the rest."
Hmmm you may need to quantify this statement for me please.

Jeff wrote:
"To LOOK for that gene in another mixed locale??"
I'm sorry Jeff is there a question here? Help me understand it if there is.

Jeff wrote:
"I think this is "Just" a NICE normal eastern similar to some of the NICE mole kings or thayeri that LACK BLACK but simply dont represent that same HYPO gene."
Fair enough, you could be right, I haven't seen many t. triagulum, but it could still be a hypo. I'd love to see this snake in person, the photos are sure making it look like a hypo.

One more thing Jeff, when you WRITE words out in capitals it reads like YOUR YELLING THEM. Let's try and be CIVIL here Jeff, were all friends, stop YELLING.

I'm w/ you too, on all the NA milk talk going on right now. Sounds good, let's keep it up.
L.t.taylori -Dell

I guess it depends what the definition of hypo is. If it simply means reduced black in the pattern regardless of how dark the black pigement is (e.g. pinstripe or thinner reduced bands), I definately think the sysplia and that eastern above qualify as hypomelanistic animals.

If it means that where the black pigment in the pattern is present (regardless of width of the bands), it is reduced pigment resulting in more a grey or brown look, then I can't tell from those photos but don't think they qualify.

I agree with Jeff that the extreme hypo hondos, hypo cambelli, hypo temporalis, etc. have a different gene and its my belief they are more likely T animals. I do not believe those are "hypo" animals. Therefore, I think the first definition I mentioned above is what hypomelanistic means.

I agree with Dell that the syspila he pictured and the eastern milk above are hypo syspila but most likely not T syspila (although I am only basing this on the pictures, never seen one in person).

I also agree with Dell about YELLING DURING POSTS!! LOL

Dave

.

Jeff wrote:
"Dell, the HYPO reds dont represent the same "type" of gene that is in the HYPO Puebs, Hondos, Coastals, Annulata or any of the rest."
Hmmm you may need to quantify this statement for me please.

I consider the HYPO GENE to REPLACE black not diminished black. There are LOTS of examples of diminished black(Thayeri, Mole kings, etc). When the black is replaced with a grayish...like the examples mentioned(Hondo, Pueblan, Cal king, desert king,etc). The Red milk HYPO gene is something else completely it only has the name HYPO because it has been around so long.

Jeff wrote:
"To LOOK for that gene in another mixed locale??"
I'm sorry Jeff is there a question here? Help me understand it if there is.

It was supposed to be obliviously redundant. Why else would you look for the same "gene" in a mixed locale??
Jeff wrote:
"I think this is "Just" a NICE normal eastern similar to some of the NICE mole kings or thayeri that LACK BLACK but simply dont represent that same HYPO gene."
Fair enough, you could be right, I haven't seen many t. triagulum, but it could still be a hypo. I'd love to see this snake in person, the photos are sure making it look like a hypo.

Dell, it may be, but I am not considering it after 1 pic. There are MANY snakes to be seen in person, alot of things are alot more obvious.

One more thing Jeff, when you WRITE words out in capitals it reads like YOUR YELLING THEM. Let's try and be CIVIL here Jeff, were all friends, stop YELLING.

I'm w/ you too, on all the NA milk talk going on right now. Sounds good, let's keep it up.
L.t.taylori -Dell

Dell, I am NOT yelling, I capitalize when I want to emphasize the word. There is no inflection with email, so I do THIS. I think most people understand, I have been doing it forever. I am always CIVIL, and if you know I am NEVER yelling you can read me. I think you understand more than you are saying with the HYPO bit, how would you explain the Red Milk HYPO gene vs other genetic anomalies?

Jeff S. wrote:
"The Red milk HYPO gene is something else completely it only has the name HYPO because it has been around so long."

I do agree the word hypo is used as a convenient way to make a point about how a snake will look or should look. We haven't come up w/ a name for every degree of leucism, and the word "hypo" seems to get the point across best.

I'm not sure I agree that the hypo syspila is "something else completlely". There are plenty of Hondurans, Pueblans...ect. that show the same leucism or hyponess as the hypo syspila.

Jeff S. wrote:
"It was supposed to be obliviously redundant. Why else would you look for the same "gene" in a mixed locale??"

Huh, aaa okay.

Jeff S. wrote:
"how would you explain the Red Milk HYPO gene vs other genetic anomalies?"

I wouldn't explain the word hypo on a forum in detail, there isn't enough time in a day for me to explain it and defend it.

I think you can clearly see a hypo or genetic anomalie from photos most the time. If I want more info. on what I'm looking at I'll call the person or email them for more photos and opinions.

Jeff S. wrote:
"I capitalize when I want to emphasize the word"

You emphasize a lot of words. To a distraction sometimes.

Peace out Napoleon,

-Dell

So you dont want to talk about HYPO here? Why respond? You dont understand what I meant by "looking" for the same gene in mixed locale easterns because the HYPO reds came from mixed locales?? Twice? I hope you do. You dont agree that the HYPO red milk gene is different than any other "gene" in any other line/sp./ssp.?? The wide white and the funky head pattern define it more than color which is completely backwards when compared to any other HYPO morph. Lastly, YODA, ITS YELLING IF I DO THIS AND I DONT STOP AND CALL YOU NAMES ETC. If I do THIS, its simply inflection and point of emphasis. I will be more attentive on its use, thanks Dell.

Jeff wrote:
"You dont agree that the HYPO red milk gene is different than any other "gene" in any other line/sp./ssp.??"

I don't agree w/ that statment in it's short sighted context, no.
If you want to hash this out more, e-mail me. And I can give you my number and we can talk it out even faster over the phone. But these kinds of post get redundant and interpreted in the wrong way.

-Dell, a.k.a Yoda

Here is a pic of the mother, Lancaster, PA. I will post pics of the father later.

Now that is not a typical Pa. specimen.,Did you say she was F1?
Where did her parents decend from?
Here are some regular old Lycoming County Pa. easterns and some babys that I have had.



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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"

No,she is an F2.

Parents are from Lancsater,Pa.

OK........
I know that a northern MD county has really nice LTT....not sure where Montgomery is...I'll look...anyways...they look hypo-ish from there...close to PA line....
I also know I live in Lancaster Co Pa...and that is NOT a normal female LTT...she may hold the hypo(ish at least)...genes...

looked hypo to me at first glance too....nice snake...good luck......

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...(______________________)

reduced black, not quality, quantity. Hypo, reduced color, quality, not quantity
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Todd Hughes

Here are a couple more pics.

Great looking Eastern, looks like a good line to be working w/, good luck.

-Dell

Marion co. syspila

Adult hypo syspila

Love that Marion Co red. More pics ????

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Doug L

Real nice eastern! I refer to ones like that as "double wides", where the white is about twice as wide as normal and affects the overall look of the snake. It has a nicely reduced pattern, but its NOT a HYPO as I see it, it has black. I hope it stays clean as it grows. Good luck!