Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
A quick question to those that have bred P. ruthveni. How long and at what temp do you hibernate your animals for?
I have good experience with hibernating northerns, but nothing else...and since I don't keep my northerns and ruthveni even in the same household I would like to know what others have done so I can get some direction.
Now, that said, based on my research I have a tentative plan of having them "go down" for December through March at a temp range of upper 40s to low 50s. This is one month shorter and about 10 degrees warmer than what I do for my northerns.

Any thoughts to share are appreciated greatly!

Thanks in advance,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

i used to do 10-12 weeks with temps in the 50's. After watching the weather channel and monitoring the temps in Louisiana for the past few years I have often wondered if they actually needed to do this full time all winter long.
Anyhow, after they are "done" brumating, feedfeedfeedfeedfeedfeedfeed the girls. whatever wherever whenever. about three or four weeks after brumating, introduce the male. I usually put the male in with the female. My females rarely ever shed in the spring. keep them together all spring except to separate to feed. when they no longer show interest in each other or the female is gravid, take the male out. I know of a few guys that had big enough enclosures that the pairs cohabitate and breed just fine.
With the exception of one pair that were like an old couple, I always had better luck introducing a smaller male in with a larger female. I can speculate on it all day why it worked, I don't know. My #1 stud died in the fall one year, next year i tried a small male, it worked, and i stuck with it. everybody turns up their nose at extra males, i always had backups.
my girls liked really big nest boxes when it was time to lay eggs. I would lay 3' neodeshas on the back, fill them up with moistened moss, put the girls in (close the lid) and let them do their thing. nice dark and quiet. easy to check in on too.
incubate eggs in moistened moss. incubate at temps in the 70's to 80 degrees. you have a much higher chance of losing eggs at higher temps. it will take anywhere between 65 and 78 days for them to hatch at these temps. don't get all looney and start slicing open eggs,lol! if it is alive and healthy it will get out on its own. they will eat fine -mouse hoppers or rat pinks, just be patient and don't shove it their face. i always got them started feeding them in a hide box and just leaving them alone.

so that is some of my experience. what happens with you will be somewhat different. learn what your snakes like and stick with it. once you have figured them out, as long as they are healthy, they should breed like rabbits. Obviously more guys have figured this out and there are more good breeders out there. with that type of experience and reasonable numbers being bred regularly, there should not be any need for anyone to cross breed/ hybridize Louisiana pines.

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

Hi Dave,
Thank you very much for your valuable and optimistic views on this species and my ruthveni program.
I am very excited about working with ruthveni, and very much look forward to applying what I have learned while working with northern pines, what I read in popular and scientific literature, and what others tell me from their experiences with this species. Experience is perhaps the most valuable tool, and I hold those with it in very high regard.
Currently my program involves 10 animals, three of which are males and seven females. Of these, only 1.2 will be ready to safely reproduce in the 2010 season. I, like you, believe that an extra male or two is always a good thing in case the unmentionable happens.
Furthermore I am looking forward to producing animals that have a diverse genetic background, as that is the mission of my program in general. While I do not have any wild-collected specimens of ruthveni that I hand collected myself there are a few people here who can vouch for the amount of time, energy, and money that I have invested in order to obtain stock that is pure and untainted. Undeniably there will always be those forever skeptical of this species and those of us who choose to work with ruthveni...to those skeptics all I can do is apologize for their misery. It must be tough for them to have no faith or at the least little trust and confidence. That's alright though, the "uglier" and/or more "unremarkable" the animal is the more I will want to reproduce it.
Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience with me.
Cheers,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

"Undeniably there will always be those forever skeptical of this species and those of us who choose to work with ruthveni...to those skeptics all I can do is apologize for their misery."

...gotta love that one

if possible you might read the literature regarding thermal ecology of ruthveni coupled with your knowledge of NP over wintering behaviors and draw some sort of conclusions . I would avoid doing anything that will ultimately create a situation that is difficult or impossible to maintain with your given situation. The more work you make for yourself the less likely you will be to carry through in the long run. With that said there is little doubt that if your project contained adult WC individuals you would need to mimic native conditions more closely but CB&B individuals can tolerate a relatively wide range of conditions.

I would probably avoid temps in the 40's (for any Pituophis).... Ok so they can survive but probably not ideal and probably not best case senario... Remember that temperature has a profound effect on the functioning of their immune systems.

I put everything "down" in Nov. and bring them up in late Feb... maybe 12 weeks and they generally remain in the range of low 50's to low 60's. Undoubtedly "too short and too warm " for some "too long and too cold" for others but it seems to work and it is manageable, (based as much or more on what I can provide over what would be ideal for each regionally evolved taxonomic group).

If you do fiddle around with the ruthveni cycles keep records and let us know what your findings are....

I would be curious to what growth records are like for animals that have a shorter dormate season.....

John,
Thank you for your valuable input as well, it is much appreciated and I am really happy to have it. Please see my responses to your suggestions/statements below.

"if possible you might read the literature regarding thermal ecology of ruthveni coupled with your knowledge of NP over wintering behaviors and draw some sort of conclusions . I would avoid doing anything that will ultimately create a situation that is difficult or impossible to maintain with your given situation. The more work you make for yourself the less likely you will be to carry through in the long run. With that said there is little doubt that if your project contained adult WC individuals you would need to mimic native conditions more closely but CB&B individuals can tolerate a relatively wide range of conditions.
Yes, I am familiar with the 2006 paper on the subject. After a quick review it appears as if the lowest recorded temperature of ruthveni in the study was about 52F, which is significantly higher than I had expected to see (~45F).
Here in the "Barrens" we can get cloacal readings in the 30sF easily. As a matter of fact, for several years now I have hibernated my northerns at very cold temps for very long periods of time with outstanding results (5 months and temps as low as 35F). Perhaps I should take a less aggressive approach to ruthveni.
My collection of northerns has no wild animals at all, yet I have chosen to treat them as such and they do outstanding. It's interesting how they can adapt and overcome. They are true survivors to say the least.

I would probably avoid temps in the 40's (for any Pituophis).... Ok so they can survive but probably not ideal and probably not best case senario... Remember that temperature has a profound effect on the functioning of their immune systems.
Interesting again. It will be hard for me to avoid 40F temps, but I will try to keep them at a minimum. Maybe I should consider putting them down now, but I am getting night time temp readings in the upper 40sF and this week we should see some 30sF creep in. My northerns are already almost completely inactive...then again you've seen my setup so you know why

I put everything "down" in Nov. and bring them up in late Feb... maybe 12 weeks and they generally remain in the range of low 50's to low 60's. Undoubtedly "too short and too warm " for some "too long and too cold" for others but it seems to work and it is manageable, (based as much or more on what I can provide over what would be ideal for each regionally evolved taxonomic group).
Perhaps, but if it ain't broke then don't fix it, right? Obviously it works very, very well for you!

If you do fiddle around with the ruthveni cycles keep records and let us know what your findings are....
I would be curious to what growth records are like for animals that have a shorter dormate season....."
Yes, I will be sure o keep good records. BTW, did I ever send you the data sheet samples that I keep on each snake in my program? I derived it from data sheets I used at HA. Pretty neat.

Anyway, thanks again John, I really appreciate the advice and suggestions from you!!
Cheers,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

Over the years I have had my best success hibernating Pituophis at 48-52 degrees F. I originally tried for cold temps in order to deal with the needs of cold weather Bullsnakes (Minnesota, Wisconsin, South Dakota, etc.), and found it to work well with Pines and Gophers as well. Hope this is of help.

Bart Bruno

Forgot to put in the length of hibernation- 75 to 90 days.

Hey Buddy,
And no one can argue with your success! Take care! John

Thanks John. By the way, sorry about the Twins, I was pulling for them against the Yankees.

Bart

Hi Mr. Bruno,
Thank your for taking the time to add your experience. I have heard really good things about you regarding pine snakes and appreciate your information.
From my work with northern pine snakes I too have had excellent results with similar temps.
Thanks again and I hope we can chat further about Pituophis in the future.
Cheers,
--Brian
pinesnakepiney@gmail.com
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--Brian Scott

Thanks. Contact me privately, we'll talk further.

Bart

Bart,
E-mail message sent via the contact form here. I hope to chat soon.
Cheers,
--Brian
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--Brian Scott