Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Guys,

Just a quick ID needed please, I'm pretty sure it isn't a PCA, However I'd like your input on the matter. And If not, What is it? Hybrid?

Just a Hondurensis?

Kind Regards,
Scott

That's a definite polyzona phenotype. WAY too many red body rings(RBR) for oligozona!. And the black suffusion of the white rings is also typical polyzona, as well as the snout band.

In other words, EVERYTHING says polyzona about that animal.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hi Doug,

Thanks for your opinion. So am I right in thinking your ID'ing this as a "Atlantic Central American Milksnake".

Is this worth going for then? Being in UK, I have never seen this offered. My only concern being that it may not be pure? Could there be any other subspecies in the mix?

I have been doing a little reading (in my not so great triangulum british) books, Regarding both Pacific and Atlantic Milksnakes, it's very diffucult to ID them without knowing where they were collected and scale count.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Scott

Yes, that is correct. It is a PERFECT "phenotype" of polyzona, but that is certainly not to say it cannot have some other genetic influence floating around in it's background somewhere,(like hondurensis, or stuarti for example).

And again, that is right, without exact locality data on where it(or the parents) originated, all there is to go by is what it "looks" like visually. One thing I will say right now, and that is you could NOT get a better polyzona phenotype if you had to, that thing is "textbook" perfect in every way, all the way down to the nasal "patches" and red scale tipping.

The very name "oligozona" means few bands(from 10 up to 16-17 MAX. to vent), so no chance at ALL it is even close there.

For all practical purposes, That would have to be labeled a polyzona above every other choice you have, unless you have other sibs and parents to refer to. It isn't a hybrid either, just pure central American milk.

Here is a pic of probably one of the best phenotypes for oligozona ever seen anywhere. It looks IDENTICAL to a tagged preserved museum specimen of oligozona that my friend Scott Ballard examined.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

You cannot go by the examples pictured in Markel's book at all, those are total CRAP, and do not represent them well in the least. The one pictured for "oligozona" is at best, a stuarti intergrade, it has FAR, FAR too many RBR to come even close to being a genuine pure form oligozona.

Also, the polyzona example in Markel's book is horrible for depicting that subspecies as well. That example had strong abnorma influence to say the least.

The text is correct, just as in "systematics", but some of the photo's depicting the mentioned ssp are absolutely horrible.

You can thank Bill Lamar for alot of that..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I am a bit confused. What you are implying is that someone who loaned photographs, presumably at the author's request, is somehow responsible for anything that you, the reader, disagree with? Strikes me as odd that the author himself, not to mention the press, wouldn't be in control.

With regard to Williams' outdated book, its credibility comes mostly from being the only act in town. Herpers, especially those with little to no experience in the field, often take a rigid approach to just what a snake should look like. Mother Nature, however, couldn't care less. What we know about actual distributions of tropical snakes is spotty at best. We know even less about variation.

Could be your expertise exceeds that of all others working with milksnakes. If so, perhaps you might wish to write a book on the subject. If you do, and you borrow any photos, I'll bet you'll stand by the identity of any that you choose to include in your book...just like Williams does.