Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First, Way to go NA milksnake guys! Some serious representing here lately! Now a more serious topic--"locality" Coastals.
I have some SERIOUS history with this ssp. and have bred hundreds and seen ALOT more than that in the past 20 years. There was a time you could show me a pic and I could tell you within maybe 40-50 miles where it was from. That was a few years ago now, and just about everyone that used to be "into" them is gone. Carl B doesnt have any, Steve F, Walt D, and too many others simply dont deal with them any more. There are very few people that can FIND these in the wild as their habitat is being lost very quickly. I dare say most people who keep em have never caught one from MD, VA or NC. Because of this most people who breed them dont know what they are "supposed" to look like, they only know the counties that the snakes made famous.
With apologies to TT and Tony and others, and maybe its what is being FOUND in the last 10 years, but most of what I have seen posted from ST MARYS I have a hard time with. In my experience less than 10% of St Marys and VA beach animals have ANY head pattern. Over the river into Calvert the head pattern is usually limited to spots over the eyes and a temporal stripe. Of course I am generalizing, we know how variable they can be. But my point is that are there any WC animals making it to the hobby with patternless heads from St Marys anymore? Is it a "natural" thing? Or is it a hobby thing? Is it simply that the successful breeders(Tony and TT,etc)that are flooding the market with these types? Mixed locales? Its my opinion the further south you go the more lizard eaters there are, and the patternless head follows the same path. Only in the last few years have I seen NC Coastals with the same head pattern. There is little or NO new recruitment of new NC coastals to the hobby so to me this means that MOST of these have to do with locality intergradation.
Without it reflecting on individuals or recent posts, does anyone else notice this? I've lost most of my pics of these types in my last 2 computers but I still have one that I will post when I can get to the pic. But ID of these animals is a lost art because not many have ever found one. Claiming locality is honestly representing your snakes. A 3/4 St Marys x 3/4 St Marys doenst make a St Marys. Opinions? Tony, lets be civilized, LMAO!

Jeff, here is a Calvert County I had way back about '95 when they were VERY uncommon in the hobby.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, in '95 there were no MORPHS. There were plenty of us NA milk guys breeding tricolors...and they were everywhere. Guys like Shannon Brown had a bunch. Calvert produced the first (and only since the anery never took off)Coastal plains morph.It was first Albino then HYPO....even though I now consider it a LAV albino/T Positive. Carl Bartlett bred em, and guys like Wally Broda, Walt Deptula, Bob Deptula,Joe Hughes,Brad,Ted T.,Tony, myself and others each had distinct lines of locality coastals. There were St Marys, Calvert, NC, NJ every county was different--- I even found the only record in Charles county,MD. They were RARE on the eastern shore til Carl went down and found like 5 in a weekend when there were only 1-2 records. Chuck the snake man was in his glory, he had the best WC collection anyone has ever seen.
Before kingsnake.com we worked on our own network. We
trusted each other, we worked off word of mouth. "Pics" were a expensive and unecessary bit. We all had every book, when asked what something looked like you would say "Markels book pg 49 only deeper blotches and more maroon color".
Doug, there were 20x more Calvert co Md Coastals around in 95 than now. There were alot more NA milks and alot less Central American variants. Moreover, most every coastal around now is likely related to every other one. What can be done? We're doin it.

Maybe there were more than I was aware of, but probably not in most of the Florida shows,.. but whatever.

You seem to make it sound like I just joined the snake game a couple years ago. I've seen more than one or two snakes in my day Jeff.

Now I'm not saying that I'm a N.A. milk "guru", because that really isn't my forte of expertise, but I think I've been heavy into snakes a little longer than you give me credit for by the sound of your post. But then again, many of your posts have a sort of condescending tone to them anyway, so it's hard to tell sometimes.

Indigo's in third grade(1968)?,..hmmm??, yeah, it's been a while.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, when I post here I post for all to read not just you. I am not condescending, and there was no kingsnake.com in '95. Calverts were not "rare". I correct these stories not to make myself look good, not at all. I can tell you all about how I bred then watched die about 100 baby coastals because...well, know how much time, effort and food animals you need to try and keep that many finicky baby coastals alive? There was no demand for em, no one wanted to start em, they all wanted turn key pinkie feeders. I make posts like this to let others learn from my mistakes so they dont do what I did.
I am sure you have some wonderful snake stories growing up in FL! I post about my experiences with milks in particular because...this is the milk forum. My sarcastic nature rubs the wrong way sometimes, sorry. But its never meant to be loud or condescending. I am competitive(in sales now,lol)but I dont mean for it to be here.

in 90 I saw St Mary's at SerpenCo ,Rich Zuchowski...big, fat, red and white St Mary's.....sweeeeet ....baby ran 125$ then wow

I also bought Costa Ricans around 92....maybe around 125$

saw Jaliscos in around 92 that didn't look like ruthveni!!!???

got Norm Damm hondos that made me so happy in around ?93 and had striped babies hatch from them around 96 ?97 ...paid 200 for babies and got a greeeat deal on them....

now I got too many locality reds and coastals....and one PA Ltt...all that is legal to own in PA.....

....can't think of any other stuff at the momment for the early 90's.....sinaloans and campbelli were cool...anulata too.......then everyone jumped on them and prices wholesale dropped to 20 and less........had nice off yellow-ish gentilis.....and even had "quatro-kings"....anyone remember them...?...LOL

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...(______________________)

"There was a time you could show me a pic and I could tell you within maybe 40-50 miles where it was from."

At least your humble LOL

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

The reason we have a "guess the locality" contest every once in a while is because IDing NA milks is a lost art. Back when there were locality breeders, before morphs, there used to be lots of guys so capable. I look around the hobby and the only one left I see is Shannon Brown. Shannon is a west coast guy, he was always best at the western ssp.. Anyways, no one gets to see enough WC locality snakes even with the cool pics nowadays. Its too easy to cross localities, states, subspecies. Before breeding was big business it used to be FUN for us hobbyists. It used to be about relationships, you used to be able to take guys to your secret spot and it used to be kept secret. Stuff like that.
Chris, if I say something its not because I want to say it, its because I think people should know it wasnt always this way...disposable snakes at shows etc. I look at a milk alot different than most people, and when it looks odd it usually is.

Jeff just stop man... you are being ridiculous. You have no means by which to assert this hypothesis that everything contemporarily-speaking w/ temporalis is an intergrade! I mean really? You take a shred of insight or valid thought and massacre it. To claim a wholesale generalization of temporalis is preposterous... you goof! Furthermore, you have no right to whine about the ease of ssp. intergradation in triangulum when you are trying to profit from it w/ getula. Textbook hypocrisy much!

You are treading a thin line with making blanket assertions about breeding practices... and based on what evidence??? Have you seen any field collected temps in recent years? Do you think that since you are unaware that they are not being found? You may wish to email people and ask them before publicly speculating on their stock, breeding, or really anything at all. There are quite a few very well informed people out here... and there are several guys with amazing experience that just do not patronize this forum. You are taking presumption to an art form here... and heed my advice and stop else it'll just appear that with all those amazing things in your illustrious grasp over the years that somehow wisdom slipped through unnoticed.

I'd take a step back and re-assess. You are jumping the gun and it's a discredit to all your claimed experience... alot of what you cite as evidence toward your conclusions is easily dismissed. Frankly, you can be quite deft at discrediting your own argument sometimes. I'd stop while you were ahead and perhaps apologize for insinuating that existing captive lines are all impure and have no traceable pedigree... ouch man. I may have to call Wally and see what he remembers of his many lines of temporalis back in the day. You know ask the guy before assuming on his behalf. To claim what you have with nothing other than a keyboard in front of you as proof is out right improper. Makes me want to question your husbandry practices, your ethics, and your accreditation all simultaneously and publicly. Something I have a founded platform with which to step out on myself.

Warm regards,
Chris

Oh yeah I took ChrisHerpGod@aol.com and HerpetologyGod@aol.com so bow to my new monacres!!! I say it and so it is so!!! Now add in ChrisBiologist@aol.com and it's all said and done... all are valid email accounts now and frankly I've never felt so powerful!!!

Email me privately.Thanks.

Chris, back on your meds quickly! Maybe you should reread the post. I know what I know, and if I dont know something I am the first to admit it. I admitted to broad generalizations, and this wont account for either genetic drift, captive breeding practices or personal preference obviously. But it is a valid question, and I thought if I approached it from a educated but "out of the loop" perspective we could talk about it. Honest representation is everything! You cant compare intergradation of getula morphs to IDing locality milks, there is no bridge there.
Answers that would be possible include---A,B, and C are relatively new lines of wc St Marys(genetic drift or chance?); maybe there is a relationship between head pattern and rodent feeding(captive breeding practices); or how about "I prefer coastals with head patterns"(personal preference). So instead of complaining that I am firing a gun maybe pay attention to see what I am aiming at. It is a subject worth talking about. I know I would be alot more likely to get back into coastals IF I knew who had "the good stuff", if there are new players in the game. Unless people step forward and admit to working with "new"(WC) lines I will assume they are either older lines(and its my opinion beyond F2 locality loses its value), HYPO/het lines or the mixed locality(and these could be due to HYPO lines-I dont judge). I think people may be more paranoid about the stigma of either using WC stock or collecting and I hope they arent.
So, if you know of anyone that has caught a NC coastal by all means let me know. They are TOUGH to find, Brad and I set up a spot down there years ago and I havent been back to check it...hope someone is! Ted is very commercial now but I know he has alot of "good stuff". I bet he hasnt forgotten how to find em! Chris you have a great collection as well, and I havent seen anything posted on those hypo scarlets in quite a while...how are they doing?? Is that hypo red getting bigger? I digress.
So where are the patternless head Coastals? If anyone has any please post! Thanks.

"intergradation of getula morphs to IDing locality milks, there is no bridge there"

Then there shouldn't be a bridge between the intergration of triangulum morphs and locality milks either but you sure make that case frequently.

Ever stop to think that your association with these integrated getula morphs is as upsetting to getula purists as my tinkering is to you?

I think Chris' point is well taken; you can't be a selective purist without coming across as somewhat hypocritical.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, there is no relation between kings and milks, they dont even "cross". I understand and appreciate what you are doing with your coastal experiments, morph breedings. For both good and bad your hets are likely surviving and producing well. But its not just your honesty in representing animals in question, generations later "non target" offspring can easily be "mislabeled". Correct? There is a $$ incentive for people to have locale vs non locale coastals. Not so in kings, there is no need to demonstrate either locale or even "pure" species.
Now I didnt "invent" these crosses, I like em so I bought em. I also like those thayeri crosses we were both working with, it doesnt mean I dont know what is important to ME with locality milks. Just because my girlfriend is a blonde doesnt mean I dont like redheads! That is simply foolish!

Jeff there certainly is a group of breeders who value the locality of getula so don't even go there. You might not have created them but you continue to propagate and promote them. Fact is, your morphs can be used to create outcrosses that are latter misrepresented. How is it that I'm supposed to consider the potential future actions of others but you're not?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, right now, there is commercial incentive to market locality coastals. You are right, there are locality getula guys, sorry if I overlooked them. I dont think they would get them from anyone they dont trust, and we are back to honest representation again. Its a smaller and smaller problem, I hope you agree.

"Its a smaller and smaller problem"

so why the stir the pot post?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, I was inquiring about the lack of patternless heads. The fact that not one person has commented on patternless heads.... Kinda tells me other people are looking to stir something. Is it new genetics? Is it personal preference? Or are there plenty of patternles heads still around, they just arent as photogenic??

This St. Mary's animal is derivitive of Ted's stock... let the scruntiny begin!

Looks like my female Mary's...

oops....I got it from TT....LOL...

the male is screeeaming dark maroon.....he is my fav milk...

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...(______________________)

Ted found that "spotted" St Marys years back, he has produced a good number of similar milks. The head certainly does look patternless to me.

"The fact that not one person has commented on patternless heads.... Kinda tells me other people are looking to stir something."

Bull! If there IS some drift in captive populations I provided the reason and others are pointing out that your original observation was a gross oversimplification.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, hard to talk about the sun on a rainy day but its possible. I never stated it as a all-or-nothing observation, I only questioned the under-representation lately. And it could be ME,LOL, I have been a little out of the Coastal plains loop for while. Dont kill me for it~~

Hey Jeff remember me insinuating that you defray your own arguments???

"And it could be ME,LOL, I have been a little out of the Coastal plains loop for while."

Then why start a marginally slanderous post asserting your damn near divine interpretation? Then go on the attack when someone disagrees with you... then play it off like you're some sort of innocent bystander here? Cause you're a self-righteous moron. Damn man I've met small children who have better concepts of responsibility than you... you can't even help yourself. Hahahaha...

Hey Jeff remember me insinuating that you defray your own arguments???

"And it could be ME,LOL, I have been a little out of the Coastal plains loop for while."

Then why start a marginally slanderous post asserting your damn near divine interpretation? Then go on the attack when someone disagrees with you... then play it off like you're some sort of innocent bystander here? Cause you're a self-righteous moron. Damn man I've met small children who have better concepts of responsibility than you... you can't even help yourself. Hahahaha...

Chris, there are several guys new to the forum since I got out of Coastals so I included my experience with them to eliminate the "so you are new to coastal plains" posts. "Marginally slanderous"?? "Divine interpretation"?? I didnt say a thing negative, and I didnt interpret anything--especially divinely. I did give my OPINION on locality importance past F2, you never mentioned that. This is a public forum, and I have gone out of my way NOT to follow others' posts that would infer slander. I ask QUESTIONS, and I am glad it gets guys like you and Ted T out of the woodwork, I know Ted has a TON more knowledge on the subject than I do. Brad is hardly ever online.
I have enjoyed corresponding with you in the past, not sure what caused the outburst. Its not exactly good form to call names and make fun of someone who is showing you respect, that isnt what I would call responsible.

"I did give my OPINION on locality importance past F2, you never mentioned that. "

I did it got yanked... it was in reference to how far removed your stock was from the wild. That's a long relatively valid debate to have... kudos. Spare me your insights as of yet though. I'm not sidestepping things like you are. I've noticed you dragging posts into the ground and it seems you don't not react well to being challenged. Keep it coming buddy... I'm eating it up.

"I have enjoyed corresponding with you in the past, not sure what caused the outburst. Its not exactly good form to call names and make fun of someone who is showing you respect, that isnt what I would call responsible."

Wanna clarify the suicide reference bud? Juvenile tripe. Again might wanna re-read what you write before you type. It's easy... let me lead the way. I do not respect you. I'd say I don't like you but I've never met you hence you get a pass on a technicality. The outburst as you see it is merely me being tired of, well... you man. I'm sorry it really could be my sensitivity pants they can be binding.

hahaha!
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

And a sweep at that! Hahah. Gotta love it!!
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

I got a pair -- Jeff gave them to me gratis!! Now Jeff snag a pair for yourself buddy. I'm going to ask this even though I already know the answer -- do you even read your posts? I'll be clear here for you... as for not seeing a correlation between a locale preference and how it bridges the gap amongst herps is inane. I have locale getula... I have locale floridana. So again chief -- you walk out and make a broad stroke argument that no one in getula cares about locale integrity? Ummmmm really? Seriously? I'll transition my thoughts here for you nice and smoothly... you know why you are unaware?

Jeff you're a tool. Aside from you singing your own praises the chorus is a bit lackluster. You freely take credit where you can... and you dish out unfounded, ridiculous critiques. I know what I know too -- I will never be so inclined as to EVER allow an animal from you in my collection. I consider what I still have to be a rescue!! You have seen NO new pics for a while as I stopped posting with any regularity. Or did your keen observational eyes overlook that? I have even been way behind in taking pics.... but here again Einstein. How do you even approach the idea of asking for pics from anyone else? You've regurgitated the same pics for years... poor ones at that. Though it is not right to attack your photography skills... alone. Oh and hey buddy why you looking for those red eastern milks? I'm speculating here but could it have anything to do with some inspired hope of mixing it in with a preexisting morph line which happens to be locale pure? Hmmmn what looks cooler with more red in it? This speculation game is fun!!! Hey do you happen to mention to any new prospective monster island milk owners that many of the aforementioned 'old-school' guys have tried and failed at this same project for years? With good reason. Better yet why did you not take a clutch shot of your hatchlings? I mean this has been a labor of love for years and years? Come on speculate with me... why Jeff? I forgot my meds today and barely slept last night and frankly sir I'll dance around your follied logic and misguided perspectives all day and into the night cause you tend to do the majority of your own debasing when you move past the first sentence every time you type.

The animals across the entirety of the temporalis range have undergone several climatological and terrain overhauls. They are a fringe population existing at the mere whim of chance. The coastal plain has swelled and waned over time Jeff. The animals have all be subject to myriad population constrictions and expansions. By that notion alone the possibilities for genetic expression are, mildly put, vast. Hell man let's get technical... am I within my rights to call your secret animals an archaic isolated population of temporalis? I mean natural selection on an island where they're the apex predator and governed by a 'cool' Atlantic could help explain a tendency toward darker coloration and larger size. You're the biologist here buddy -- you tell me? I mean I'd called northern populations temporalis-influenced triangulum intergrades anyhow... ever seen any yellowish green bestial Burlington County, NJ animals? Come on throughout those hundreds if not thousands of animals tell me!!! Well cause I have...

This is getting scattered -- I lump it up to just the mental restraint it takes to both make sense of what you utter incessantly and to remain coherently focused on making a point using your points as a base. You know why people do not want to tell you about new localities? Come on buddy just refer back to the opening sentence in the second paragraph. I can tolerate grandiosity, can stomach idiocy, but I shy away from anyone who claims to have all the answers decisively. It's called being delusional dude. We are all speculating here... though now that I have a spiffy new email (ChrisBiologist@aol.com) I feel confident that I'll soon be privy to the same celestial insights as you. By the way -- there will be more lizards at lower latitudes. Hence a correlation between more animals preying on them and a southerly drift does make sense. Yet where do you include temporalis and why? Better yet why does a head pattern reflect prey choice? Or even how does it work out that feeding mice as prey items has caused this aberration in your eyes? Help me out with some clarification. If you please anyhow... just as an FYI that is rhetorical. That means don't answer the question directly. Got it?

You like to condescend and play it off in jest... hey if it helps you get by I'll not judge you but remember if you can dish it you had better be prepared to allow the same scrutiny in on yourself and your practices. I'd say you might want to wait on the full-on sensitivity pants and try some of the training variety. They are leak poof now!!! Much unlike the majority of your drivel.

Now as this has gotten here and I feel like an idiot for having typed this much in response to you I'm going to post it but not before giving some real credit out. Cole... dude stop it. You're killing me. Dell you as well. Although I may pic your brain for some photo ideas now =) Hardwick way to go this year! I'm glad you had a brilliant rebound year!!! Joe M dude... I need say nothing more than well done sir. Doug L.... man have you gotten more cool snakes? I should really get back on here a bit more! Joecop... you are really moving on up man! Solid animals and I'm glad you're in the game. Not playing around either! Doug... keep on preaching man. There are several people (I'm certain) that benefit from your advice all over these forums! Oh and nice to see some stellar production as well. Is that '07 male the same you posted as a nate? Tony... thanks! Honest representation of your line is worth it's weight in gold. Your stock is self-evident! If Charlie were still around these parts I'd congratulate him on his quest for no sleep. But with some smokin' animals to show for it! Shannon... I hate you. =) Seriously way to amass even more man! Nice to see Dan Eby's holding the flame for annulata! Phil... well looks like your locale group is becoming more and more solid! You have some smoking stock! Mr. Exposito... you sir produced some insane hondos! Though I know you already know that and the lil' bastards are likely already huge. Dave... well dude. I can never say enough about your husbandry but now you got a collection that makes grown men cry! Ted -- thanks for popping on here and offering up some valid insights. I freely defer to you in terms of acquired knowledge so let me ask you have you produced hundreds and hundreds of temporalis? On a special note... I'd like to than Paul Weaver for having integrity in business. Or lack thereof as it were... Comparative to the general subject matter it's refreshing man!

O M F G! L M F A O! Are you a framing carpenter by trade Mr. Nickelson? Because you sure know how to hit the nail on the head. Thank you for posting what I have been saying for years but am not allowed to say here for whatever reason. Ken.

Ken, LOL!!!!!!
We "all" know why you've been holding your tongue!
If only I could do the same! Damn, this hurts!
-Phil

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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

everyone remind me never to get on Chris's bad side!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tool is putting it ever so nicely.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Chris, did you even read the original post? It was asking where the patternless heads are represented. If not, why? It diverged,OMFG did it diverge, from there. Its too bad people had to resort to personal attacks instead of staying ON SUBJECT.
I never stated "no one in getula cares about locale". You inferred this.

"You freely take credit where you can... and you dish out unfounded, ridiculous critiques"-what have I taken credit for? Where have I criticized? I see in this post I am inquiring about the LACK of patternless heads, YOU infer something else.

"You have seen NO new pics for a while as I stopped posting with any regularity. Or did your keen observational eyes overlook that? I have even been way behind in taking pics.... but here again Einstein. How do you even approach the idea of asking for pics from anyone else?"--Do I have to explain to you what its like to be socially acceptable? Saying HI and complimenting you on your collection isnt enough for you I guess,lol.

"You've regurgitated the same pics for years... poor ones at that. Though it is not right to attack your photography skills... alone"--you should check out the forum more often, plenty of new pics!

"Oh and hey buddy why you looking for those red eastern milks? I'm speculating here but could it have anything to do with some inspired hope of mixing it in with a preexisting morph line which happens to be locale pure?"--I havent seen any red easterns in a long time. I havent EVER mixed milk localities, not that there is anything wrong with that as long as they are honestly represented. Pre-existing morph line??

"Better yet why did you not take a clutch shot of your hatchlings?"--posted a month ago

"The animals across the entirety of the temporalis range have undergone several climatological and terrain overhauls. They are a fringe population existing at the mere whim of chance. The coastal plain has swelled and waned over time Jeff. The animals have all be subject to myriad population constrictions and expansions. By that notion alone the possibilities for genetic expression are, mildly put, vast. Hell man let's get technical... am I within my rights to call your secret animals an archaic isolated population of temporalis? I mean natural selection on an island where they're the apex predator and governed by a 'cool' Atlantic could help explain a tendency toward darker coloration and larger size. You're the biologist here buddy -- you tell me? I mean I'd called northern populations temporalis-influenced triangulum intergrades anyhow... ever seen any yellowish green bestial Burlington County, NJ animals? Come on throughout those hundreds if not thousands of animals tell me!!! Well cause I have..."--Where you started makes no sense, I guess you havent done any climatological inqueries because you are pretty wrong there. I never claimed GREEN as a unique event, I just seem to be the only one with the gumption and integrity to pursue it.

"I shy away from anyone who claims to have all the answers decisively"--I never claimed such, in fact my post INQUIRES posting questions...thanks for "all the answers" Einstien.

"By the way -- there will be more lizards at lower latitudes. Hence a correlation between more animals preying on them and a southerly drift does make sense"---WOW, credit alert, 5 pages into your diatribe you mentioned THE SUBJECT. If not for this your half hour of typing was useless. I will leave you to get back to your suicide note, dont do it!

Heya jeffy... I did read the original post. I laughed off your assertion about head pattern as it's a nonsensical conclusion. Do you recall stating that you feel all temporalis in the hobby to be impure???

"I never stated "no one in getula cares about locale". You inferred this."

"Not so in kings, there is no need to demonstrate either locale or even "pure" species."

Ok buddy this is a semantics argument... why are you hiding from your own words? Are these both your quotes? Help me out here.

"what have I taken credit for? Where have I criticized? I see in this post I am inquiring about the LACK of patternless heads, YOU infer something else."

So did Joe or you raise the amel. eastern? Better yet did you provide the sole source neonate husbandry? I did not for reference -- I'm asking you a question. Did you not also manage to infer that EVERY freaking temporalis in the hobby today is a county mix? Dude... you typed it where's this point mentioned if you only inquired about the lack of patternless heads?

"Do I have to explain to you what its like to be socially acceptable? Saying HI and complimenting you on your collection isnt enough for you I guess,lol."

You are a shady, shady big little guy... you're reputation amongst some milkheads is questionable at best. I'm sure you have a ton of people rushing to help you out here -- they just seem to lack an internet connection at the moment. Do me the favor of never telling me what is or is not appropriate. I've never been to Nantucket buddy! Oh and I'm sorry how rude... Thanks for the compliment -- excuse me for considering the source though.

"you should check out the forum more often, plenty of new pics!"

Saw them -- look forward to more in 2012!!! By the way happen to have a picture of a hatchling exiting an egg? A clutch of eggs? Help me out here if I missed it... lol... I'll be a man and apologize. It's refreshing -- try it.

"--Where you started makes no sense, I guess you havent done any climatological inqueries because you are pretty wrong there. I never claimed GREEN as a unique event, I just seem to be the only one with the gumption and integrity to pursue it."

Ok dude... it was an allusion to the Wisconian Ice Age... and yeah I'll just go ahead and defer to you there. I mean there is in no way that an ice age could be deemed a climatological shift. Nope... no sireee. Also thinking on it you telling me the climate has been stable and consistent for thousands of years? No shifts in global sea level in response to temperature swings? But you're right -- again you say something w/o any evidence to substantiate it -- then you go ahead and hint that I must be wrong -- cause well darn it you have to be right! By the way your name and integrity are polar opposites chief. Oh and I thought Carl B. was actually spearheading this... if you're the only one I'm confused. Also picking up someone's table scraps and serving it as dinner is somewhat questionable but hey baby it's you... do as you please.

"I never claimed such, in fact my post INQUIRES posting questions...thanks for "all the answers" Einstien"

LOL... oh boy. Jeff I took a page from your book -- I generalized! You know referencing you're never-ending train of trivial mutterings. You wanna do a quick poll and inquire as to how many people think you're quick on the draw with a decisive answer even when none has been asked of you? Or to slam something with which your experience is lauded but in the prestigious halls of your own mind. Dude you felt compelled to generalize an entire captive population as a question or a declarative? Did you forget already? Might wanna bust out the webster here buddy. Cause you asked a question and slammed an entire niche of the hobby w/o substantiation to validate your hollow point. Might really wanna re-read everything you type homie cause you're making yourself look more foolish than I ever could. By the way why am I not allowed to have b.s. answers like you? Do I have to get a card or something? I could say that you have an issue cleaning your cages. Now let's examine this a bit... you see just about every pic you post has visible waste. I could just assume you enjoy the squalor or feel it's more suitable for the snakes.I get it you're a biologist and are probably doing a study on amplifying gut flora in captive populations??? Let me know when the results are in I'm fascinated! But then I'd be looking at just a piece of the puzzle... but hey you do it and draw conclusions. I like it it's fun and follows no scientific disciplines!

" If not for this your half hour of typing was useless. I will leave you to get back to your suicide note, dont do it!"

Useless... That is beyond juvenile. I believe it or not expected more from you... damn did I just type that?!

Someone just got pwned! Ken.

Heya jeffy... I did read the original post. I laughed off your assertion about head pattern as it's a nonsensical conclusion. Do you recall stating that you feel all temporalis in the hobby to be impure???

Nicky, "?" this is known as a question mark. When it is at the end of the sentence it means I am asking a question not drawing a conclusion. It was one of at 4 different possibilities I listed in the original post. Sensitive subject??

"I never stated "no one in getula cares about locale". You inferred this."

"Not so in kings, there is no need to demonstrate either locale or even "pure" species."

Ok buddy this is a semantics argument... why are you hiding from your own words? Are these both your quotes? Help me out here.

NICKY-OK-you are right here, the word "need" is wrong. Feel better?

"what have I taken credit for? Where have I criticized? I see in this post I am inquiring about the LACK of patternless heads, YOU infer something else."

So did Joe or you raise the amel. eastern? Better yet did you provide the sole source neonate husbandry? I did not for reference -- I'm asking you a question. Did you not also manage to infer that EVERY freaking temporalis in the hobby today is a county mix? Dude... you typed it where's this point mentioned if you only inquired about the lack of patternless heads?

Nicky-Joe has raised that little guy all by himself! I am proud of him, is that wrong? Every temp. a county mix?? Now you are simply making stuff up. County mixes could(could, not "is" account for some of what I was saying, how can you argue it doesnt?

"Do I have to explain to you what its like to be socially acceptable? Saying HI and complimenting you on your collection isnt enough for you I guess,lol."

You are a shady, shady big little guy... you're reputation amongst some milkheads is questionable at best. I'm sure you have a ton of people rushing to help you out here -- they just seem to lack an internet connection at the moment. Do me the favor of never telling me what is or is not appropriate. I've never been to Nantucket buddy! Oh and I'm sorry how rude... Thanks for the compliment -- excuse me for considering the source though.

Nicky, not sure where you are coming from here. My rep?? Serious milkheads? I know TT hated me BEFORE he met me simply because I knew Chuck the snake man, hope he changed his mind. Pretty silly reason. Brad I would like to say I know pretty well, but I thought I knew Joey as well, and he robbed me of my whole collection so I wont apologize for not getting too chummy with others. Some of us dont NEED others' approval, we are called adults.

"you should check out the forum more often, plenty of new pics!"

Saw them -- look forward to more in 2012!!! By the way happen to have a picture of a hatchling exiting an egg? A clutch of eggs? Help me out here if I missed it... lol... I'll be a man and apologize. It's refreshing -- try it.

Nicky-look at the pic

"--Where you started makes no sense, I guess you havent done any climatological inqueries because you are pretty wrong there. I never claimed GREEN as a unique event, I just seem to be the only one with the gumption and integrity to pursue it."

Ok dude... it was an allusion to the Wisconian Ice Age... and yeah I'll just go ahead and defer to you there. I mean there is in no way that an ice age could be deemed a climatological shift. Nope... no sireee. Also thinking on it you telling me the climate has been stable and consistent for thousands of years? No shifts in global sea level in response to temperature swings? But you're right -- again you say something w/o any evidence to substantiate it -- then you go ahead and hint that I must be wrong -- cause well darn it you have to be right! By the way your name and integrity are polar opposites chief. Oh and I thought Carl B. was actually spearheading this... if you're the only one I'm confused. Also picking up someone's table scraps and serving it as dinner is somewhat questionable but hey baby it's you... do as you please.

Nicky, I was not talking about climate SHIFT, I was talking to you about your conclusions about the island's climate. Take the time to look it up, its public record. I never mentioned it, you brought it up and are drawing your own conclusions. Carl B has what we would all call an Anery, he hatched it. I have its siblings, all females dammit. Carl is off the grid, and I have never put words in his mouth or vise versa. He believes in this project as much as he did the Hypo or striped Temp. lines. You may as well bash him through me now as well, makes as much sense. Integrity, it doesnt change over time.

"I never claimed such, in fact my post INQUIRES posting questions...thanks for "all the answers" Einstien"

LOL... oh boy. Jeff I took a page from your book -- I generalized! You know referencing you're never-ending train of trivial mutterings. You wanna do a quick poll and inquire as to how many people think you're quick on the draw with a decisive answer even when none has been asked of you? Or to slam something with which your experience is lauded but in the prestigious halls of your own mind. Dude you felt compelled to generalize an entire captive population as a question or a declarative?

Nicky-if you say the same thing twice doesnt mean its twice as true! This is a forum for opinion, and I have been slammed as well. It comes with the territory, now you know how it feels. This is not real life, this is not personal. There are proper ways to have an arguement, look at PTI on ESPN. By the way, life isnt a popularity contest, no one is running for president here. Educated opinions should always be respected, you dont have to agree. What is more valuable here, a troll who sits and waits to explode on someone for a made-up reason or someone who uses their experience to try and help people that want to be helped?

Did you forget already? Might wanna bust out the webster here buddy. Cause you asked a question and slammed an entire niche of the hobby w/o substantiation to validate your hollow point.

Nicky-this is the 3rd time you refer to this slam. You understand it never happened right? If you say it a 4th time you dont get extra points.LMAO!

Might really wanna re-read everything you type homie cause you're making yourself look more foolish than I ever could. By the way why am I not allowed to have b.s. answers like you? Do I have to get a card or something? I could say that you have an issue cleaning your cages. Now let's examine this a bit... you see just about every pic you post has visible waste. I could just assume you enjoy the squalor or feel it's more suitable for the snakes.I get it you're a biologist and are probably doing a study on amplifying gut flora in captive populations??? Let me know when the results are in I'm fascinated! But then I'd be looking at just a piece of the puzzle... but hey you do it and draw conclusions. I like it it's fun and follows no scientific disciplines!

Nicky-you come back from left field to TRY and make a critique...My snakes poop, yup, well fed and healthy snakes poop. Clean their cages and whats the first thing they do? YUP. Now if this is a reflection on what I think of you, that you are poop, I think you are thinking too much into it. If you think I dont care what you think of my pics? Bingo! How is that for scientific discepline?

" If not for this your half hour of typing was useless. I will leave you to get back to your suicide note, dont do it!"

Useless... That is beyond juvenile. I believe it or not expected more from you... damn did I just type that?!

I call you Nicky because you are acting like a little girl. A bullsh*t artist cant find her way out of the China shop....

"I call you Nicky because you are acting like a little girl. A bullsh*t artist cant find her way out of the China shop...."

I believe you meant to put jeffy instead of Nicky here. Just pointing out a typo. LMAO! Oh wait, can I put that here? That seems to be your best answer for anything intelligently said.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Chris Nicholson=NICKY

LOL, I am sure that many of us have already decided not to ever buy from Jeff, who knows what you are getting?
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.1 Poss Het T Sinaloan

>>LOL, I am sure that many of us have already decided not to ever buy from Jeff, who knows what you are getting?

I've heard you might get a dirty tube sock with a hole in it as a snake bag. Ken.

That I collected myself and there are variations in EVERY locale. Pattern including banding,ventral pattern, coloration, head shape and habits as well as the infamous "collar" which is SOMETIMES complete and sometimes broken and SOMETIMES abberant.I have a wc Hyde Co and Chesapeake VA that have broken/abberant collars. Head spotting pops out from time to time and in captive bred lines this trait pops up routinely and becomes more common. I have seen captive lines produce MANY pattern anomolies that you might not see otherwise.
Hard work and many years go into some of these animals and different lines are......well......different! "Temporalis are variable and I've seen examples from many locales that are "different"from the norm.
Northern examples(ie NJ to northern VA)vary greatly from the southern examples from se VA and ne NC by having heavy triangulum influence versus heavy elapsoides influence in the south.

-stretchx

Thanks for getting back on subject, the interest in Coastals is their variability for sure! You have maybe the best coastal collection, you know what I am getting at with the question. Have you or anyone found more WCs with head patterns lately? Is this a CB anomaly? Without asking for stats, have you noticed a increased % in the last few years? Pics posted on this site, Paul Weaver's NCs aside, lean heavy to the patterned head. Could it be that the NICE, clean patternless heads never leave the breeders house?? Check your email. Thanks!

That I collected myself and there are variations in EVERY locale. Pattern including banding,ventral pattern, coloration, head shape and habits as well as the infamous "collar" which is SOMETIMES complete and sometimes broken and SOMETIMES abberant.I have a wc Hyde Co and Chesapeake VA that have broken/abberant collars. Head spotting pops out from time to time and in captive bred lines this trait pops up routinely and becomes more common. I have seen captive lines produce MANY pattern anomolies that you might not see otherwise.
Hard work and many years go into some of these animals and different lines are......well......different! "Temporalis are variable and I've seen examples from many locales that are "different"from the norm.
Northern examples(ie NJ to northern VA)vary greatly from the southern examples from se VA and ne NC by having heavy triangulum influence versus heavy elapsoides influence in the south.

-stretchx

You know ask the guy before assuming on his behalf. To claim what you have with nothing other than a keyboard in front of you as proof is out right improper. Makes me want to question your husbandry practices, your ethics, and your accreditation all simultaneously and publicly. Something I have a founded platform with which to step out on myself.

ive questioned the same, and publicly, and yet after 15 years he still cannot prove an anery gene in his "monster" island line of ltt haha that alone speaks VOLUMES.
but yet he is an expert breeder and has had tons of all NA milks just ask him he will tell ya, now trashing other folks's lines!!!TSK TSK, nothing more than a salesman wanting to be a milkman good luck getting a coherrant answer from him about ANYTHING! roflmao
sad
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I can verify that an animal he sent to me was by every means an anerythristic. It was NOT green, however, more or less the same color palate as an old-school anery corn. I will not go out on a limb and suggest the same for the 'greens' but I can say that both nominate triangulum and temporalis can and do express a variety of coloration. Including what appears to us as hues of yellow and even greens. That holds true from the pine barrens of NJ into the piedmont of mid-atlantic.

Not a defense here -- just an observation. I can attest to the notion that it remains conclusively and terminally unproven on my end.

Chris

LMFAO! Mr Nickelson please send me your mailing address so I can send you a bill for a new laptop.... mine is now ruined after I spewed Pepsi all over it while reading your post. Chrisbiologist@aol.com? That was incredible! You should try to get GreenTemporalis@aol.com too.. or maybe MonsterScarletKing@aol.com! I hope you get to read my reply before the "biologist" has it deleted. Ken.

Coastals are highly variable and the divergence you see in captive lines is a result of un-natural selection by breeders working this genetic pallet. We select for bigger, brighter, better feeding response to mice .... not to mention personal preference. I'm not sure why the shift you're seeing in captive populations surprises you.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

BTW, I produce about 1 - 2 dozen animals a year so I don't think I'm flooding the market in any way. Also the animals I produce are largely hypos and I'm very clear that they are NOT local specific so they should not be used in any comparison to wild stocks any more than your getula should be compared to wild goini.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS