Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Did I miss something?

Someone posted this to the thread below: "all of these fantastically colored Louisiana Pine Snake morphs that are swarming all over the scene nowadays."

Are there any LA Pine morphs?
Is red phase a morph? Does anyone even have a red phase?
Any pics of a red phase or any other morph that might exist?

Karl

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Boneyardreptiles.com

Hey Karl,
No, you didn't miss anything at all. It's all a matter of semantics really and this is prime example of a difference between herp enthusiasts in the USA as compared to the same people that share the same passion in other countries. (RichH and I just spoke of this a little while ago)
In Europe, for example, a morph is considered to be anything outside the "normal" of the species. For example, what we call a hi-white individual may be coined as hi-white or colored morph in Germany or Holland.
In the USA, we currently do not recognize any morphs of ruthveni other than the simple variations that are seen from time to time. What I mean is that in some areas, say Bienville Parish for example, there tends to be some specimens of ruthveni that show a pronounced reddish tone. American herpers call this a red phase. In reality it's really just a prime example of what scientific literature is referring to when it coins ruthveni as "highly variable."
Hope that helps, cheers!
--Brian
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--Brian Scott

"It's all a matter of semantics really and this is prime example of a difference between herp enthusiasts in the USA as compared to the same people that share the same passion in other countries. (RichH and I just spoke of this a little while ago)In Europe, for example, a morph is considered to be anything outside the "normal" of the species. For example, what we call a hi-white individual may be coined as hi-white or colored morph in Germany or Holland."

Exactly. Thanks.

"In the USA, we currently do not recognize any morphs of ruthveni other than the simple variations that are seen from time to time. What I mean is that in some areas, say Bienville Parish for example, there tends to be some specimens of ruthveni that show a pronounced reddish tone. American herpers call this a red phase. In reality it's really just a prime example of what scientific literature is referring to when it coins ruthveni as highly variable."

I have seen pictures of this "red phase" Bienville Parish LA Pine before, but only when compared to average ruthveni the words "red phase" make sense to me. These certainly aren't quite as red as some of the specimens I've seen pictured on this forum. With "reddish morph" I was refering to specimens as red as Kingsville Bullsnakes, not the Bienville Parish "red phase".

"These certainly aren't quite as red as some of the specimens I've seen pictured on this forum. With "reddish morph" I was refering to specimens as red as Kingsville Bullsnakes, not the Bienville Parish "red phase"."

Can you please post a link to a thread with a pic of a LA Pine as red as any one of the pics of Kingsville Reds at the below link.

http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=kingsville+red+bullsnake&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0
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Boneyardreptiles.com

"Can you please post a link to a thread with a pic of a LA Pine as red as any one of the pics of Kingsville Reds at the below link. http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=kingsville red bullsnake&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0"

I think you know exactly which LA Pines I was refering to, as I commented on them before. I remember calling them "hybrid" which, admittedly (there you have it), I cannot prove either. Anyway, the link points to pictures of linebred Kingsville Bullsnakes, selectively bred for high amounts of red pigment. Obviously, your LA Pines aren't quite as red as these. I was refering to normal Kingsville Bulls. Anyway, I'm willing to change position on this, with all this new (albeit biased and unverifiable) information brought to the table recently. Certainly, I can see you made quite an effort to ensure the genetic background of your animals. Maybe I'm just too demanding. After all, it's just a hobby.

I did know exactly which LA Pines you were talking about and I was hoping you would post something. I went ahead and took some pics for you.
I'm glad your willing to change your position on this (if you believe my animals are pure or not)and I hope you do some research and contact the people on the list that Dave gave. You will find that there are PURE Ruthveni out there and there are honest people out there with honest representations of this species. I hope you will be able to enjoy them again in the future without the doubt of purity!
Karl
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Boneyardreptiles.com

The original picture and a picture with a Kingsville red.

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Boneyardreptiles.com

The original picture and a picture with a Kingsville red.

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Boneyardreptiles.com

Uhmmm... I see your point. Quite a difference indeed. Funny, the more I look at them, the more I doubt my initial considerations regarding them.

I've been thinking of getting back into "Pits" for quite a while now, as you probably already have read between the lines. But it's the good stuff that I want, no morphs, definately no hybrids. That's one of the reasons why I like to stirr things up a little, it drives people to come up with information you otherwise wouldn't get.

Anyway, today I took the plunge. Went to Houten, came back with 1.2 Pituophis deppei jani. Happy happy, joy joy.