Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is a pic of my 08 (R.Blair) Sanderson 9 mile N. This girl might turn out totally patternless. I really like this one. Just sharing a pic. Thanks for looking. JD

Can we see a baby pic? Has she been losing those rings?

Yes, the rings are being replaced with gray...more with every shed. She is also a poss. het aner. I can't wait until she is ready to breed. I have a male 9 mile R.B. ot pair her with.

Here is a baby pic.

Thanks,
JD

Blair 9 mile snakes? Not to stir up another controversy, Im just curious about what these anerys came out of.

i agree, it may be crossed with a gap, etc. There is no doubt a shadow of doubt now.

I'm pretty sure the 9 miles came from Dave D.. Plus, not all the anery alterna came about by breeding them to Gap's.
-----
Steve W.

>>I'm pretty sure the 9 miles came from Dave D..

well there you have it...

>>>not all the anery alterna came about by breeding them to Gap's.

yeah, not all of them....
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Yes, David D is the origin. And I do know of someone else who has produce an anery from 9 mile from unrelated wild caught snakes.

It appears that you have some unrelated issues with David that may be influencing your replies.

ask Shannon and Aaron what they know about that line....
it's unrelated to the unrelated issue.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

mile. IF there are Id love to hear about it. Reason Im asking is that Im hoping to produce some, and want to know if that gene really is there. What other unrelated line are you talking about.

If it's not Damon, Bryan, or John F. then I don't know....
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Well I'll step up to the plate & answer the call, here is a photo of what I beleive is an anery alterna that I did produce in 2006. This was taken days after its first shed. It was a female & its origin traces from cb 9 milers that I personally raised from wc pure 9 milers that my wife Barb, I, Damon & David from NM all found many years ago from 9 mile hill at Sanderson. It is the real deal, no other people involved. And it is alive & doing well, so we'll see what it throws for neonates someday.......... JF

Heres a much better quality photo that Damon took as this snake has grown & is now a sub-adult........

Regarding this later photo I just noticed that this snake is NOT the same snake as in my first post, but is a sibling to the snake in my first post..........JF

Here's a larger version of that shot... the snake is progeny from a line that has genes contributed by five different WC snakes... three that were caught in 1993, one from 1991, and one from 1997. I'll see if I can't find the pedigree tree for the snake, but it has no connection to Dave Doherty's lineage. All snakes in the pedigree were either collected by John, Barb, David Stricker, or myself, or produced from snakes we caught or bred. Whether it is a true anerythristic animal remains to be seen but all indications point in that direction as it has absolutely no orange and neither did the other sibling. One interesting point is that this and the other similar sibling marked the first time that our lineage produced animals with this busier phenotype. Up until that point it had only produced more typical animals.

Here is one that I hatched out in 1993 that looks quite similar to yours John. They are crappy scans of crappy photos.

as hatchling

as adult

surfaced many times from unrelated lines. If thats the case, then why the doubt about the Blair line. I produced one this year from WC snakes that is trending toward the anery look, but since Im not Bryan, John, or Damon I guess I should just toss it in the freezer.

I have an anery from 277 that came from parents that were caught by me and only me. So they're out there.

-----
Steve W.

then ask Shannon or Aaron. They'll tell you and it has nothing to do with the anery gene.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Will do.
-----
Steve W.

or call me back after you listen to that scolding message
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I would rather not right now. I have already tracked the lineage and I will disclose it when I sell any offspring from the ones I have. I am very tired of all the attacking on this forum. David and Ric are good friends and I still view them with great integrity despite their mix ups. I appreciate the concern.

I get it, you have some of the line.

This isn't the first time it was brought up on the forum, maybe you were absent that day?

Either way, all that matters is that you are happy with your snakes, and you represent them accurately, so make sure and keep those names attached.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I find it hard to believe that either one of those guys would pull a fast one on purpose. The one mistake was exactly that, a mistake. This has gotten ugly. I've known Dave for 21 years and I find him to be very honest. If a mistake was made it's water under the bridge. There are plenty of deceptive thieves to worry about and one in particular I won't mention here. But these arent them.
-----
Steve W.

either, right?
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I've been there but don"t know the area well. How did that end up here?
-----
Steve W.

Well you sounded like an expert on the area down below, and I'm telling you are dead wrong both below and on your character reference above. If you bend over in front of the guy he will screw you bigger than Dallas.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe, I was going by what Bob told me and I "do" trust him. I never came off as an expert just felt that if one could be found then why not another. From what I've read here the people mentioned made a mistake and because of that they've been black listed. If there is something I'm missing or don't know then by all means tell me so I understand better. because of the tos here we're pretty much contained. If it weren't for that I would love to unload on who the thieves are. I guess some of those people get a pass when they do wrong out of pity.
-----
Steve W.

if you know something. We should all thank Joe as well. Unfortunately some people will get their feathers ruffled, but somebody has to keep tabs on bad conduct.

Smitty,
I know for a FACT that the line that Ric has/had was pure sanderson.But,,,,, it was 9 miles north x 9 miles east!!!!!!!!
yep, 9x9 so call them what you want but to me they are just generic anerys.

I think they are beautiful animals and I would probably keep some just for there looks but I would never call them sanderson's.
Anyway, take it for what its worth but they are what they are.

L8r Shannon

More details, please. Inquiring minds want to know

The snakes are advertised as (Nine mile north cuts). Does Ric know what you know???

Robert

Yeah,
I was at his house several years ago and we had a long talk about them.I think it was about (97) I was out in West Texas messing around and stopped by old Buzz's place for a bit.He was showing Aaron and I all his Knobs and alterna etc....
He pulled out a few baby alterna that where just killer.One was a anery and one was so speckled we where just blown away.
He said it was his half of the clutch from a breeding loan with DD.
He said that he ( or Kathy probably LOL...) had collected a female on the east cuts of Sanderson.He said he had no match for it and that Dave had a male from the North cuts and asked Buzz to do a breeding Loan.
This is Just what Buzz said to us and I have never spoke to Dave about it so there is always two sides to every story and I am just saying what was said from one side.
Buzz would have no reason at al to say they where 9 x 9 animals unless they really where.It would have been beter for him to say they where pure north or east cut snakes but he didn't.

I guess it was about (2000) and I was in Utah and staying at Rics house.We where going through his snakes and he showed me some pretty small ( maybe yearlings?)nice alterna and one was anery and several where possible hets or whatever at the time.I asked him about the snakes and he wasn't totally sure if they where north east or west cut snakes but he knew they where from Sanderson and they where all from DD.
I told him about the conversation I had with Buzzard and he said that he wasn't sure and he would check on there "LOCALE"...

Anyway, a few years later I was staying with Ric again and we checked out the snakes again and now they where about all adults and just awesome looking.He had adults,sub-adults,yearlings and hatchlings.He said to me that every year Dave would send him the best of the sanderson's he produced.

I can tell you that the snakes that Buzz had at his house and the snakes that Ric had at his house where exactly the same looking snakes.I can't say for sure that Dave didn't have a pure pair of 9-north and was sending Ric babies from them and then useing the same male on Buzz's 9-east female but I highly doubt it.
Maybe Dave will read this and chime in and can shed some light on it but a couple years ago when Dusty Roads ( the American dream....)posted pics of them we all talked about it then and never really got any clear answers.

Anyway, I still believe that they are 9 x 9 snakes and they are just generic alterna and totally beautiful.

L8r Shannon

So, it’s not a fact yet...it just looks BAD, lol. Just a few interesting questions for discussion that I have:

1) Why would Doherty ask Buzz for an east Sanderson female to pair up a north Sanderson male? I have to believe there were plenty of other candidates for breeding loans that had legitimate nine mile alterna.

2) Why would Ric Blair acquire 'Sanderson' alterna in the first place if he wasn’t sure they were from north, east or west cuts? Kind of makes you wonder about his standards doesn't it

Robert

If they both originated in the Sanderson area they would still be able to be called Sandersons. Just not exact locality. Where would the line be drawn.
-----
Steve W.

I saw the same snakes at Buzz's house and I can confirm everything written here by Shannon as True and Correct.

also I think this is Buzz's snake, it was from 10 miles east of Sanderson

-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Shannon, I agree with what you recall & posted & here is the photo of the Buzz/Cathy Ross female East Sanderson snake, that was found off the same cut on the same night as the male snake that Joe posted under your same thread here. As I understand & recall the snake that Joe posted was dead in less than a year after it was caught, so maybe this female was the snake used in the project of crosses??

I think the busy east snake was the motivation for the breeding loan. I'm sure it dided, but not sure how long it took.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

trust me it gets old being the only one with balls enough to call bull[bleep] every single time I see it. Pretty soon I'm going to leave ya'll to wallow with your breeders of "great integrity" that can't tell a freaking Hueco from a Black Gap. Stupid or dishonest take your pick, either one fits, and it's not the only example I can cite. So don't get me started Sweetman because I'm not even close to being done.

In the mean time maybe someone can take note of the breeders who actually document the animals and lineage they breed. Something is wrong if you have to do your own digging. DUH.

In the mean time maybe someone can note the difference between a LOCALITY animal and a 10th generation line bred that no longer represents the locality label. If not you are doing BOTH a disservice.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

**trust me it gets old being the only one with balls enough to call bull[bleep] every single time I see it. **

I'm happy for you and your balls. You sure don't act like it gets old to you - seems as if it is your main reason for getting up in the morning. But your closed minded attitude and continuous attacks serve to leave people with a sense of 'rule by intimidation' on this forum and prevent people who might want to post from posting. Negating lineage out of hand or patently calling everyone liars is entirely ridiculous. NOTHING can be proven unless you collected the animals yourself, bred them yourself and sold them yourself. So lets give people a little bit of credit that they're not continually trying to pass off crap. It all comes back to trusting the person you get them from. I can clearly see that you don't trust anyone and therefore probably only will be satistied if you or your horde collects them. Fine. If people don't trust me that's on them, I couldn't care less. Pick and choose your battles instead of battling everyone all the time.

**Pretty soon I'm going to leave ya'll to wallow with your breeders of "great integrity" that can't tell a freaking Hueco from a Black Gap.**

Don't tease us if you're not serious!

**In the mean time maybe someone can take note of the breeders who actually document the animals and lineage they breed. Something is wrong if you have to do your own digging. DUH.**

What would constitute a documentation in your mind?

**In the mean time maybe someone can note the difference between a LOCALITY animal and a 10th generation line bred that no longer represents the locality label. If not you are doing BOTH a disservice.**

Here we have found your sensitive spot. While you are correct that a 10th generation line bred animal would probably bear no resemblance to one that you would catch from the same locality in the wild, you are incorrect in making the assumption that something removed from the wild for 10 generations is not a locality animal. Regardless of what happens down the line of two wild caught animals - 10 generations later as long as the bloodline has remained true, the fact that they are selected for pattern/color does not negate their locality.

Ok, so are we to believe that wild caught snakes, from about 9 miles apart happened to be captive bred together to produce a visual anery.

The chances are like 1 in 10,000 of that happening right?

I guess that's the story and it is up to us to believe it or not.

Thanks Shannon for sharing.

Jim

Not what I was talking about but thanks.

Jim,
I thought of that also but truth be known I don't think the odds are all that high actually.
I remember a long time ago Jim Kane bred a alterna to a mex mex just because he had one sex of each with no match and before the clutch hatched he had sold off the adults at a show.When the clutch hatched he had a couple anery's in there.
He tried to get the adults back and start the long process of breeding them true but he could never find out where they went.
At any rate, I don't think its much higher odds at the end of the day. I think that most odds are based on albino's and thre are so many forms of albino that its much higher odds.

L8r

Shannon is correct. I remember these anery hybrids and have pics of some of them. Statistical incidence of amels in the wild extrapolates to 1/100 being het. It is possible, just a matter of lucking into the correct animals that are het for the same trait. I caught a Trans-Pecos rat on the river road that turned out to be het amel.

only one snake has to carry a recessive gene if related offspring are bred together. then a visual can be produced.

if you consider the number of visual genes (morphs / mutations)in the hobby for all the species you'll see it is a common occurrence.

further anery is known in at least 4 different alterna localities, so it's not uncommon in alterna.

the anery gene was incidental to the mixup IMO.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>only one snake has to carry a recessive gene if related offspring are bred together. then a visual can be produced.

If one snake carries a recessive gene it can be passed on to more than one offspring. That is what I was trying to say. Then the recessive gene can become visual in future generations.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

.

only bull bleepers have been called out by me, so it's no wonder you were included.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I don't feel like I've been included. Sorry.

I'll get suspended for violating the tos for a personal attack or I would.
-----
Steve W.

This thread was recently brought to my attention. I will make one and ONLY ONE post on this topic - don`t want to get into a "he said, she said...." I will only list pertinent FACTS. I will not include any conclusions, make any assumptions, contect the dots, fill in the blanks... To quote Dragnet`s Joe Friday - "just the facts".
1)In the mid 1990s, I had a breeding trio of wc 9 mile Sandersons. I caught one of these animals, Gerry Salmon caught one, and Joe Forks caught one.
2) I produced a bunch of babies from this group.
3) A bunch of people acquired these babies from me.
4) Years later, one of these people (my good friend Ric Blair) produced some anery alternas.
5)I have never been involved in a breeding agreement with Buzz Ross (human or sub-human).

These are undisputable facts. Elaborating beyond these basic facts would just lead to....... well, you know.
Happy herpin.
David D

Thanks for the clarification.
-----
Steve W.

I think you can "report" your own experiences or those of others that you're keenly aware of and make it a PAA (public alterna announcement) as long as you keep it to the facts and refrain from name calling. The facts are what they are. Outing out impure lineages and deceptive practices, or calling out past mistakes is a service to our community IMO. Just don't say, "if you bend over in front of the guy he'll screw you bigger than Dallas!" LOL!!!

Robert

Feel free to email me.
-----
Steve W.