Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't want to piss anyone off or start a flame war.
A nice "strong" discussion is good but I'm really not trying to start anything
just thinking out loud.
I posted this on the cornsnake forum this morning and thought I would fix my typos and post it here.

There are so many statements, guarantees, arguments, whatever you want to call them about this locale or that locale and my animals are only "this" or my animals are only "that".
I was just wondering if any of the staunch locale people actually know the true range of a corn snake, rat snake or king snake in it's entire lifetime? Or better yet do we/they know the range that three or four generations may cover?
how about okeetees or subocs or alternas
Some say it can only be called an okeetee if it was found within the boundries of the hunt club or has lineage traceble to the boundries of the hunt club, while some expand these boundries to the borders of Jasper county.
Then you have locality animals like Doug Gap Road subocs, or highway 727 alternas (these are the actual roads but you know what I mean).
Going back to my questions before...do they know the exact lifetime range of these animals to be able to "guarantee" these animals are actually FROM these locales, not just found there?
Big difference as far as I'm concerened.
I personally don't like to narrow it down beyond state lines and this is only used as an indication as to where they are found not as a indication of their lineage.
Let's take the okeetees for example.
Ok, for arguments sake, let's say the "okeetee line" is the border of the hunt club. There is a corn snake born twenty miles from the hunt club, it breeds with another corn that was born outside of the hunt club and their babies spread out from the hatch site. Say one of these babies begins to grow and move out into it's own territory and "wonders" within the hunt club borders. It just so happens that "Herper Joe" is hunting the hunt club and sees this snake as it has just entered the hunt club boundries, he catches this corn and says "hey, what a nice okeetee I've found, I know it's an okeetee because I just caught it within the hunt club boundries." Problem is, this snakes is no more okeetee then one born several hundred miles away. No actual ancestry tied to the hunt club. It just happened to crawl in.
Same story in reverse. Several clutches of corn snakes are born within the boundries of the hunt club, the parents of these clutches were also born within the hunt club boundries and their parents were as well. Now these hatchlings would be about as okeetee as you could get. Well, like animals do, they spread to find areas with the least amount of competition, some make it, most don't, but let's say one of these makes it and finds a nice place near the boundries of the hunt club, finds a mate and new hatchlings are produced. This new clutch spreads out and several leave the borders of the hunt club. As they grow they spread a little farther from the hunt club and yep, you guessed it, "Herper Joe" comes by and finds one of these snakes crossing a road five or ten miles from the hunt club boundries. This snake is actually a true okeetee corn snake but because it was caught outside the hunt club boundries it is NOT an okeetee.
Basically my point is simple..unless there is a non-penetrable boundry how can anyone ensure the true locality of a snake just by location of catch.
Did it just cross into the boundries?
Did it just cross out of the boundries?
Were the parents from inside the boundries?
Were the parents from outside the boundries?
Was one from within the boundries and one from outside the boundries?
To me, way too many questions for anyone to ever guarantee locality or to keep locality pure.
That's why I don't worry about which county my Alabama wild caught corns are from. Simply because it can't be proven. I just use Alabama wild caughts to signify where they were found. I have some from a couple of different counties and really don't have a problem breeding them together.
That's like the eastern black kings and black rats I've caught in my area. Some dead center of the county I live in and some on the boundries, just inside the county...and some in nearby counties. I don't classify them as "X" county animals because I can't prove this is where they really are from.
Other people can and have called them "X" county animals and that's their choice, it just doesn't work for me.
anyway just some thoughts

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Yeah, I can surely relate to all that too. All I can say is very simply, where does something start to become one thing, and where does it become something else?

Since there are no electric fences, or other impenetrable means to retain a snake, I just use some common sense and roll with it.

If I caught a nice orange/red cornsnake a small distance from the 50,000 acre estate, would it be a true "Okeetee" corn?. To me it sure would be, as long it was a very reasonable close proximity to the estate, but I would also devulge this to the buyer, if someone else has a problem with it,,,,oh well, go get one from someone else then..LOL!

Just like you mentioned, for what it's worth, I name the specimens after the county they where captured in, even if it was very near a bordering county only because THAT IS WHERE I caught it.

Some people get way too caught-up with fighting about locality names, and highways a specimen was caught, and look down upon anything generic or that the lineage cannot be traced back to somewhere specifically. Me,..I certainly like to know every single possible piece of history about any of the animals I have that anyone can offer,...but I won't loose sleep over some of it like some do. Life is too short.

There's only so much stuff we can know for certain anyway when it comes to nature, this much I DO know..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I don't consider myself a "radical" locality guy, but nonetheless I like to know as much as possible about the snakes I breed. I personally don't call a pairing "locality" unless the male and female could have, conceivably, met in the wild. To me that means, for most colubrids, a distance of at most three or four miles (as the raven flies).

Most snakes live their entire lives in an area of a few acres to a square mile or so-this is especially true of females (check out Fitch's classic studies on copperheads, ringnecks and other common midwestern snakes). If I catch a suboc on river road, it is unlikely that snake is some wanderer from many miles away (even Mexico)-not impossible of course, just unlikely. It's probably a local resident. For my own locality pairings, I can tell a customer the exact spot where each parent was found (if I can't, then I don't represent them as locality animals).

That said, it's true that most people don't care much about locality-they just want a healthy, nice-looking animal. Either way, the important thing is that the breeder represent his animals honestly. That way every potential owner can come to their own conclusions.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad, I totally agree. On the other hand, Jimmy, let's use bairdi for example. From east to west they are differently pigmented, would you agree? Therefore, to take a Val Verde county animal and put it with a Jeff Davis county animal would still get ya' pure bairdi, but at what cost? You'd neither get the silver animals you may want or the darker orange you may want, but something in between, yes? So, using this snake that has a small range (in comparison to other species) the mixing of genes from even a few counties away could lose (or gain) you something. I don't think many snakes travel as far as you may think, once a suitable (for them) habitat is found most stay put. Males tend to wander further than females, (of course) but once they find what they are driven to, they stand pat. (mostly) If you breed for deli cup snakes fine, if you breed for locality, fine, but what most of us really want is as much info about the snakes we are getting as possible. With locality animals and a trusted breeder, you get the most bang for your buck. Also, the other end of the stick, by breeding sibs from locality animals, down the line, (just my opinion) you get a better chance to more quickly bring forth unseen possibilities.

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Todd Hughes

Great example, Todd! I'd also submit that we should be breeding subocs for locality more than at present, for the same reasons-though the locality differences are not often quite so pronounced than with bairdi (probably because subocs are more likely to inhabit lower elevation chihuahuan desert habitats between mountain ranges).

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I'm no Pointdexter but I just made up this little diagram to suggest what probably could happen to transmit genes from one end of a population to the other without any particular animal migrating the whole distance...please critique and torch as necessary

The "T" represents time and although the diagram only indicates flow time-wise from A -> F it could just as well operate in reverese simultaneously.

Great diagram-and probably in general accurate for wide-ranging, generalist snake species (for example, corn snakes in the southeast).

Now remove the overlap between the populations, and you have the situation that obtains with higher-altitude specialists like bairdi and alterna, and the reason these species are better candidates for locality breeding projects.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Ok, so my bairdi is more blotched & orange & orange cinnamon over all. Where would it originate from? Or is it just a "mutt"? LOL
Actually, does anyone know? Where do the darker ones come from? I asked this before & I'm still curious..

Matthew

Just from a description, I might say it sounds like an animal from the eastern end of bairdi range. But one basic tenet of locality breeding is that you absolutely, never, ever assign a locality based on appearance alone.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I couldn't agree more.

Take for instance these 'Aztec' or 'Sunkissed' so called 'Okeetee' Cornsnakes. The horror!

)))

YEPPERS.That is why I used Florida cornsnakes as an example on part of this thread!
Frankly, my guy is a rescue so I don't know if he is wild caught or CB at present..
Just that he is the most personable snake I have ever owned..

Matthew

east to west they start out light and darken goimg west, go ddep south mexico, they turn yellow, lol! John, I have some Davis Mt. animals from Troy Hibbets' old line that are the darkest orange I've seen. All the animals I have from Jimmy's line are silver. I'd speculate yours are from 'tween'!
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Todd Hughes

He is VERY orange! At one point, I briefly considerd NOT pure bred ( some linderheimi in there?) but nah..

Matthew

Matt, that would be just as cool in my book, I've been looking for that intergrade population for a while now. If it is from the wild and an intergrade, I'd be there to take a crack with working with it!

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Todd Hughes

Todd,

Anytime you have a receptive date let me know!
BTW, I have discounted the idea though. Too many bairdi characteristics & totally nice personality. In fact, the tamest dang snake I have ever owned. Will take food out of my hand ( actually, trying to discourage him from that one!) & begs for food. Not Texas rat at all that I can see. But I'm starting to wonder if he could be a good color addition to the Bairds' gene pool.

Sincerely,
Matthew
PS. Could there really be a linderheimixbairdi cross out there?

>>Todd,
>>
>> Anytime you have a receptive date let me know!
>> BTW, I have discounted the idea though. Too many bairdi characteristics & totally nice personality. In fact, the tamest dang snake I have ever owned. Will take food out of my hand ( actually, trying to discourage him from that one!) & begs for food. Not Texas rat at all that I can see. But I'm starting to wonder if he could be a good color addition to the Bairds' gene pool.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Matthew
>> PS. Could there really be a linderheimixbairdi cross out there?

Yes, there definately ARE Baird's x Texas Rat crosses, in the wild. Several have been found over the years. Remember, bairdi used to be considered a form of obsoletus - and they really are very similar. Also, your snake could have gotten enough bairdi blood for it to be calm - and not all lindheimeri are vicious anyway. I have even found "pure" large adult Texas Rats which barely put on any defensive display.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Well, I hope not! I want a pure bairdi. But having gotten it from PetCo I certainly wouldn't want to gamble on a pure pedigree! LOL
When I replace my dead camera I'll get some pics, let you judge for yourself.

Sincerely,
Matt

Oh, I know they are out there, just out of my range to effectively travel to to find some! I wasn't saying yours was, just a thought. You say the date, I'll meet ya' there!
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Todd Hughes

Some time in early spring, I'd say. I'm sure my bairdi will be looking for love by then!

Matthew

I'd like to find some property to hunt in Bandera county, I hear they are nice and light from there!
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Todd Hughes

Do any occur near where they hold the Texas Star Party? I plan to attend in the spring & might want to go herping. I think its either near Stockton or FT Davis..

Matthew

I'm pretty sure they do occur there, need to find some mountain access though.
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Todd Hughes

That's why I've been leery of what I'd term super-locality specific language (this alterna is from between these two mileage signs on this road!). These animals are not static beings and they do move about and disperse. Basing localities on artifical boundaries seems sort of wrong headed to me.

That said, if there are natural barriers between certain populations I understand maintaining them distinctly--say, island forms of reticulated pythons.

Some of the "localities" are just like the island pops you mention, as there is not suitable habitat for them to successfully disperse into adjacent to where they are. Sky Islands come to mind. Corns and most other eastern and southern type rats haven't got much of a boundry throughout their ranges, but the more montane types do. I would be interested in seeing some of the bairdi that occur in the most southern areas we have access to in the U.S., not many representatives from there.
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Todd Hughes

Great "out of the box" thinking! ...and good thoughtful replies. To agree with the rest...all you can do is relate the facts...conclusions are up to the beholder.

Great responses.
I agree that you can never have too much information and Todd you did bring up some very good points about the bairdis.
We all have our own views and opinions on the subject and as far as I can see there really isn't a "wrong" way to look at just "our" way...lol
I appreciate the fact that you guys took my post for what I intended, just my views and an invitation for discussion and didn't see it as any kind of attack on anyone maintaining lacality specific animals.
thanks
Jimmy
(aka Draybar)

n/p

Gorgeous as usual Jimmy.
Thanks yourself..

Matthew

shoot Jimmy, your awesome Sam and Rosy pair I got from you several years back got me started with them! I've always wanted to catch my own, since I am not all that far from the eastern population.
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Todd Hughes

As far as corns go, from my experience in Florida with wild ones, you can forget locality data. Okeetee is a particular suite of colors, the most attractive of all Corn morphs.
I cannot speak for the other animals, though I think my Baird's is hinting at a similar thing occuring in that ratsnake..
Just random thoughts, not arguing any particular point here.

Matthew

You worry too much, LOL. Basically, it doesn't matter where the snake was born. The moment it crosses the population boundaries (by itself, not released) it becomes part of the population. Many (if not most) populations aren't isolated from other populations. Therefore we should consider populations not as rigid entities, but as the dynamic equation of gene flow versus natural selection. The moment a Cornsnake crosses the boundaries of the Okeetee hunting club, it becomes an 'Okeetee' Cornsnake, regardless of where it was born. And in most cases (definately in the case of the 'Okeetee' Cornsnake) specimens from surrounding populations do not differ all that much (if at all) to begin with.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

>>You worry too much, LOL. Basically, it doesn't matter where the snake was born. The moment it crosses the population boundaries (by itself, not released) it becomes part of the population. Many (if not most) populations aren't isolated from other populations. Therefore we should consider populations not as rigid entities, but as the dynamic equation of gene flow versus natural selection. The moment a Cornsnake crosses the boundaries of the Okeetee hunting club, it becomes an 'Okeetee' Cornsnake, regardless of where it was born. And in most cases (definately in the case of the 'Okeetee' Cornsnake) specimens from surrounding populations do not differ all that much (if at all) to begin with.
>>
>>Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

ok just a little heads up
back in the early days breeders such as Rich Z. and a few others would release their "etra" hatchlings on the hunt club property.
This is where those supposed "loacale astec okeetees" came from.
A certain breeder named Mike admitted several times to release aztec, zig/zag specimens on the hunt club property and has publicly challenged a certain individual who advertises locality aztec okeetees.
Did these released animals automatically become okeetees.
And there were many hundreds of captive bred/hatched corn snakes released there.
If I drove over there today and dropped off a couple of normals would they become okeetees the second the crossed ino the hunt club property?
ummm....no
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Well, here I can give personal testimony. I found a yearling "zig-zag" corn under pine bark on the edge of hunt club property in 1982! Unless these guys released hatchlings as early as the late 70s, then that animal was a natural product of that population.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

>>Well, here I can give personal testimony. I found a yearling "zig-zag" corn under pine bark on the edge of hunt club property in 1982! Unless these guys released hatchlings as early as the late 70s, then that animal was a natural product of that population.
>>-----

actually a lot of hatchlings were released there in the early 70's
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Obviously. Dispersal or release makes a huge difference.

I always assumed that 'Okeetee' morphs were produced in captivity. If indeed hundreds op captive born Cornsnake morphs have been released within the Okeetee hunting club boundaries, than we can safely assume that the true 'Okeetee' Cornsnake has become extinct by now. I certainly hope this is not the case.

>> "If I drove over there today and dropped off a couple of normals would they become okeetees the second the crossed ino the hunt club property?
ummm....no"

*** Jimmy, the funny thing to think about is, to YOU, they certainly would NOT be since you know you just released them there,...but what about someone who found one of yours sitting there shortly after you drove off, or a week later?..LOL!,....to this person, it would be a DEFINITE "Okeetee" corn, no matter what it looked like, because after all, he just captured it there on the estate property himself!, who the heck is going to tell him otherwise, or better yet prove otherwise?. It simply can't be done.

Sounds silly, I know, but that's how things would work, and DO work,....see what I mean?..LOL!

I'm sure MANY people capture snakes all the time all over the country now that think they are a very specific type, when in actuality, they are not what the person thinks at all. Only several decades ago, this would certainly not be the case at all, but today, it is a totally different story.

I think the bottom line is, there are many things we all "think" we know for absolute fact, when in fact, we really don't at all. This can apply to MANY things involving animals, the earth itself, and the endless galaxies too...LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"I think the bottom line is, there are many things we all "think" we know for absolute fact, when in fact, we really don't at all. This can apply to MANY things involving animals, the earth itself, and the endless galaxies too...LOL!"

I definately must hug a tree right now. )))

I know!, Iknow!,....I sounded just like a geek "poindexter" philosopher with that part at the end..LOL!!

But still very true nonetheless..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"there are many things we all "think" we know for absolute fact, when in fact, we really don't at all."

How do you know this?

>> "How do you know this?"

** hmm, I don't know (scratching head in wonder)..LOL!

As you can see, George Bush just got back from a snake hunt in Jasper County too, and he can't quite figure out exactly what he caught there either, his W/C specimen wasn't nearly as deep orange/red with wide black borders as he was expecting to see from other specimens captured there.

HAHAHAHAH!!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

...tears rollling down my cheeks (TRDMC)!

LOL!,...I was sort of giggling a little as I was typing it too!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

LMAO, Doug, that's funny! How DO you know? I'd like to see all the ex prez's out in the field, that's the real reason most don't do as good a job as expected, it cuts into field herping and they're always day dreamin about it!
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Todd Hughes

Unfortunately I have to suspect that this particular ex-Prez's idea of field herping involves a shovel and a bulldozer.

I agree!,....no different than most of the general public actually..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

HAHAHA!!,..TOO FUNNY BRO!!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>>> "If I drove over there today and dropped off a couple of normals would they become okeetees the second the crossed ino the hunt club property?
>>ummm....no"
>>
>>
>>*** Jimmy, the funny thing to think about is, to YOU, they certainly would NOT be since you know you just released them there,...but what about someone who found one of yours sitting there shortly after you drove off, or a week later?..LOL!,....to this person, it would be a DEFINITE "Okeetee" corn, no matter what it looked like, because after all, he just captured it there on the estate property himself!, who the heck is going to tell him otherwise, or better yet prove otherwise?. It simply can't be done.
>>
>> Sounds silly, I know, but that's how things would work, and DO work,....see what I mean?..LOL!
>>
>> I'm sure MANY people capture snakes all the time all over the country now that think they are a very specific type, when in actuality, they are not what the person thinks at all. Only several decades ago, this would certainly not be the case at all, but today, it is a totally different story.
>>
>> I think the bottom line is, there are many things we all "think" we know for absolute fact, when in fact, we really don't at all. This can apply to MANY things involving animals, the earth itself, and the endless galaxies too...LOL!
>>
>>

but that's the point I'm trying to make
WHO KNOWS.....LOL
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Somwhere in this thread it was brought up maybe this is the case. I know what was meant by this comment...but there are some rue Okeetees out there, meaning animals that have ancestery from animals caught around the old plantation that have only been bred to other animals from the Okeetee area. Such as the animals below (this may be seen as a cheap way to promote for my Okeetees but this is not my intention)that come from animals that were collected by some of my very good friends and the resulting offspring have only been bred to other offspring that came from the original animals that were collected back in the late 80's. You can see some of the differences in some of these individuals.

This animal was an offspring of the original group that was captured in the late 80's, she was hatched out in '89 and died in 2007 but not after producing some 400 or so offspring in her life.

This female was produced by the one above and has what I consider the "look" of a classic Okeetee including the development of the dark longitudinal lines that often come with age.

This female was produced by the one above and the photo does not show how red this individual really is. It has a hypo look to it but it only has Okeetee blood in it, ie. blood from that original group on wild caught animals.
The two points I am trying to make is that locality Okeetees exsist (even though I know none really doubts this) which in this case, are offspring of animals that were captured in a relatively small area that we call the Okeetee and what we may call locality animals can change as we humans begin "messin" with them over the course of a few generations
Scott John Reptiles

>>Somwhere in this thread it was brought up maybe this is the case. I know what was meant by this comment...but there are some rue Okeetees out there, meaning animals that have ancestery from animals caught around the old plantation that have only been bred to other animals from the Okeetee area. Such as the animals below (this may be seen as a cheap way to promote for my Okeetees but this is not my intention)that come from animals that were collected by some of my very good friends and the resulting offspring have only been bred to other offspring that came from the original animals that were collected back in the late 80's. You can see some of the differences in some of these individuals.
>>
>>This animal was an offspring of the original group that was captured in the late 80's, she was hatched out in '89 and died in 2007 but not after producing some 400 or so offspring in her life.
>>
>>This female was produced by the one above and has what I consider the "look" of a classic Okeetee including the development of the dark longitudinal lines that often come with age.
>>
>>This female was produced by the one above and the photo does not show how red this individual really is. It has a hypo look to it but it only has Okeetee blood in it, ie. blood from that original group on wild caught animals.
>> The two points I am trying to make is that locality Okeetees exsist (even though I know none really doubts this) which in this case, are offspring of animals that were captured in a relatively small area that we call the Okeetee and what we may call locality animals can change as we humans begin "messin" with them over the course of a few generations
>>Scott John Reptiles

I understand what you are saying, John and I never really meant to infer that there are not locality animals I was just leaning more towards the difficulty of proof beyond where an animal was caught.
Of course the reverse is, and has been mentioned, if it was caught there then that's where it's from. Simple as that...that is it's locale.
It's made for a great discussion and has provided interesting points of view.
By the way those are some beautiful okeetees and I don't mean to take anything away from any locality animals.
Hell, I have okeetees and as long as I breed them to okeetees I will call them and their offspring okeetees. Does that make me a hypocrite?...LOL

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy I do understand where you were coming from in your original statement and you brought up some good points...and yes it did make for a good discussion.--Scott

>>Jimmy I do understand where you were coming from in your original statement and you brought up some good points...and yes it did make for a good discussion.--Scott

by the way
sorry I called you John instead of Scott
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Yes, there must still be plenty of true 'Okeetees' living in captivity. But extinct means gone in the wild. Captive specimens are no substitutes for wild populations.

Okeetees are definitely NOT extinct in the wild-corns are extremely common in Jasper county, and it would take FAR more than a few folks releasing their hatchlings to make even a tiny change in the physical or genetic makeup of that population.

This is particularly true when you realize that hatchlings experience extremely high mortality prior to achieving breeding size-but even if they did not, a few dozen or a few hundred would have zero effect on a wild population that surely numbers in the (at minimum) tens of thousands.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

You are exactly correct Brad....there are plenty of wild Okeetees in this area and the impact of these released animals is very small since as you noted, most by far do not survive.

Come now, we are talking about a color morph, nothing more. It just so happens that animals, Corn Snakes, from that area show that pattern, but it is tsill only a color pattern.

but, arguably the most fantastic on the planet. Or should say most famous.
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Todd Hughes

Well, on that we agree. But since we are only talking about color, if one breeds for that coloring with Corns, and then gets them to breed true, then what really is the difference? "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."