Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this has been debated here before but is it with 100% certainty that this is where Temporalis comes from?

If I had to guess... nope.

Perhaps syspila and elapsoides in southern VA and into NC... exhibiting more and more influence of elapsoides the further south you go.

A more or less relic population of syspila in and around MD and into northern VA and DE.

Then an integradation between nominate triangulum and 'temporalis' to the north. With exceptional inherent variability.

Mind you this is speculation... but I'd go out on a solid limb and say that the 'old school' perception is rather wrong.

Chris

I agree with what Chis is saying here. I have also heard other very knowledgable milk heads speculate this also. To my very untrained eye, the temporalis from the northern part of the range look an awful lot like syspila that I have seen.

In central NC and all over SC, they don't look much like syspila to me however which is consistent with what Chris said about the further south, the more they look like elapsoides.

Does anyone know where they stand with making elapsoides its own species...lampropeltis elapsoides?

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Dave,

Wouldn't necessarily want to call it a 'new' or separate species. It does seem to share common ancestry w/ Mexican triangulum. It may very well be a precursor species... I do see some similarities to other gulf coastal triangulum. Perhaps but only in the periphery of the known ranges of the respective ssp.'s but just as well. I truly think that mtDNA research alone will not yield conclusive results but, again, I'm just a hobbyist here. So we will probably have this question answered a time or two in the years to come.

Chris

"Does anyone know where they stand with making elapsoides its own species...lampropeltis elapsoides?"

I would say on shaky ground. From what I've heard, the mtDNA data they've collected to date suggest only "historic hybridization" with adjacent forms of triangulum whatever that is. Regardless of this data, there seems to be an obvious transition area between classic examples elapsoidies, and temporalis and amura highly suggestive of integration. There is no denying however that elapsoidies is vastly different from most other milksnakes. IMHO this is just a case where the animals refuse to accommodate the little classification scheme we've devised for them no matter how hard we try.

I really don't know what to make of some of the mtDNA data that is being presented. I think its both fair to say that I don't understand it and that it's being subjected to some pretty extreme statistical analysis in order to justify conclusions. In my view some pretty odd conclusions are coming out about the mexicana complex too. Things like thayeri being more closely related to triangulum than to greeri just doesn't sit. When this info started coming out I tried a little experiment:

I place a male temperalis with a female thayeri and observed no breeding behavior.

I place a male thayeri with a female temperalis and observed no breeding behavior.

I placed a male elapsoidies with a female thayeri and observed no breeding behavior.

I placed the same male elapsoidies with a female temproalis and observed immediate breeding behavior.

I didn't have a greeri to test against thayeri but I strongly suspect that I would have seen breeding behavior straight on.

For those feeling their panties bunching up no actual breeding resulted from this. I know that observing for breeding behavior and or response is low tech relative to molecular investigation but it sure seems to indicate a relationship to me! Heck DNA evidence says I'm closely related to chimps but I never looked at one and though, "that could be fun".

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Very interesting post Tony, and I tend to agree with all of it!

Those experiments you conducted(although scientifically inconclusive) where extremely interesting as well.

>> "Things like thayeri being more closely related to triangulum than to greeri just doesn't sit"

*** This seems ridiculous to me too, and doesn't seem to make a bit of sense to me either..LOL!. Whoever concluded this either knows a big secret they aren't telling me about, or they are on some great medication!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for sharing that experiment you did. Very interesting...

Dave

Well the extent of their range suggests that something other than simple integration is at work so no it is not 100%. Current thought is that they are largely influenced by syspila. How that influence winded up in the mid-Atlantic Coastal Plains is the subject of the like I've posted. Outside of that, I think that their integrations with trianulum and elapsoidies to the north and south respectively is obvious.

All in all its still an odd situation especially given that there is a strong move to elevate elapsoidies to species status. If anything, I think the complex is a great example of what can happen to populations during periods when the climate is in transition.
Prairie Peninsula

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

work, try to copy and paste this to your brouser window:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1931679?cookieSet=1
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I couldn't get either to work...but most likely it is operator error with me!

Funny thing is I did a Google search on this and found an old KS post where I'd linked to it before. It linked right to the site. I copied the URL and pasted it into this thread but that doesn't work. Just weird!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

wait... lol... I agree.

I have no experience with N. Va or MD, but there is definitely something different about elapsoides as you travel north along the coast of NC...more orange-red than red, bands that do not cross the belly, head is broader, plus they seem to start out larger as babies and grow larger as adults...

Bad pics, but note all the white on the belly and how the neonate has more "blotches" than "bands".

Thanks,
Michael

Cool pics Michael! thanks for posting.

Dave

So are you fishing their deepblue?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!